Another opinion about cables...

[tigerwoodKhorns]

The anti-cables look like the exact wire used in Solen litz inductors. Should be very cheap to try out.

[Fastlayne]

...spades being tin plated copper, but the website confirms this. Seems odd, as most manufacturers prefer gold or rhodium plating which are much more expensive, but tinned copper is usually avoided in interconnects and speaker wire. My guess is that this is a cost restraint, but it obviously has no ill effect in your system. ...

The main reason I mentioned the spades he uses and the extreme high pressure crimp is for duplicating a set of his cables DIY. For a 6' set is would cost you 6 x $1.25 x 4 which is $30 for the wire. Add the cost of 8 connectors, the ability to crimp them under "extreme high pressure" and the time involved might make it worthwhile to just pay him the $60. A marine supply might have similar tinned copper spades. He will terminate the wires with banana connectors, his or yours, but it costs more. I don't recommend bare solid wire with the type of plastic binding posts found on most receivers or speakers because they don't tighten enough with finger pressure. I've heard of some others using solid wire for speakers too. Audio Advisor has Audioquest Slate they terminate themselves, cheaper than factory terminated. Check out the video on the AA website for some good information. http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=AQSLANF If you want a shotgun bi-wire cable, it would be easier to handle than the Anti.

As for the tone control aspect, I do see cables as important links in the chain but don't consider them the same as components. I do agree there is synergy and much of the trial and error can be avoided with component impedance matching. The best system I have ever heard was in a recording studio built in a home Just speaking gave a special quality to our voices in that acoustically treated room. If I ever build another house and have a dedicated theater or listening room, I'll use some of the same methods he used for acoustics. My point is the room can be one of the most important links in the chain. We can spend a lot of effort chasing our tails with endless changes of cables and gear in the system that will never produce optimal results until the room is right. Unfortunately, most of us live in real-world rooms with windows and have people in the home who really wouldn't appreciate the look of padding and fabric on the walls no matter how good it sounds. []

[Hifi jim]

My point is the room can be one of the most important links in the chain.  We can spend a lot of effort chasing our tails with endless changes of cables and gear in the system that will never produce optimal results until the room is right.   Unfortunately, most of us live in real-world rooms with windows and have people in the home who really wouldn't appreciate the look of padding and fabric on the walls no matter how good it sounds.

That is so very true Fastlayne. In a lousy room, even the best gear and recordings will sound sub par. To get the very best of any system, room acoustics should be addressed first, but as you say, this is not always aesthetically practical. I think the price of the Speltz cables are very reasonable, because as you explained the materials alone would cost so much. My concern was over the tin plating which most cable manufacturers frown upon, but Speltz has obviously been using this without issue as many positive reviews can prove.

[Fastlayne]

The anti-cables look like the exact wire used in Solen litz inductors. Should be very cheap to try out.

Isn't the wire in the Solen inductors stranded? Anti-Cables are solid wire. Someone said it's like transformer wire so maybe it's the wire he uses in the Zero Autoformers.

edit: Just did a search and found one report saying the wire is 12ga. enameled magnet wire.

[winchester21]

During a money for equipment exchange there was a funny looking pair of flat speaker cables headed for the trash. Nobody had a clue what they were. My son said that he thought they were some kind of high dollar cables. Being an obsessive pack rat -I grabbed them and threw them into the vehicle with the other stuff. Turned out after an internet search -they were Nordost Blue heaven- about 450 bucks a pop. I have used them with a variety of Mac stuff as well as my tube setup. Do they make any difference???? Solid state stuff- absolutely not. Low powered tube stuff???? Maybe just a tiny bit better- or maybe it is the placebo effect- or maybe its the 3 Vodka tonics- or maybe nothing at all. Are they cool to look at and create conversation- definitely. Would I pay 450.00 or even 250.00 for them?????? H e & & NO!!!!! But I see people buying this stuff on Audiogon all the time. As far as i am concerned-- Snake Oil.

Or maybe my ears are shot from siting on the Amplifiers at rock concerts in the 70s or from the million + of rounds of ammo that I have fired through the years- some without hearing protection

In any case I have identified the part numbers for a Belden wire and also an interconnect cable used by professional studios and cable manufacturers such as Blue Jean. I can buy a 1000 ft roll of the speaker wire for 350.00 and the interconnect at 1000 ft for 750.00. I intend to find somebody local to split the interconnect cable and go from there.I am in the process of looking for a better price. So far I have only called Graybar electric. They will sell to anybody with a credit card. I would suspect that if one were were to call around pretending to be a small time professional installer- you may be able to get some sort of discounted jobber price- as hungry as distributors are at present. This is my plan to never have to buy cable again.

[Hifi jim]

My pet peeve is if $50/foot cables brings you so closer to the original receording, wouldn't that presume that such expensive cables were used to make the original recording?  Given the very long chain, I doubt that.

I've heard this point before psg, and here's my take. I'm sure most studios use nothing more than quality cables such as Belkin or something similar. Very good for what they are designed to do. Once the recording is made, the listener brings this recording home and plays it on his or hers system. If their system is a boom box, then they are very limited in what detail and other audio adjectives they can hear. If their system is a mid-fi system, they will hear much more than the boom box was capable of. And if they should be so lucky as to have some Klipschorns and maybe a full McIntosh system, they will hear even more right? My point being the playback system is the veil between the listener and the recording (the veil between the recording and the original event is another matter altogether but that is more about engineering than cables). Better cables are like most every other "better" component, the higher up you go the more information that is retrieved from any given recording. This is why poor recordings will often sound so horrible on better systems, and sometimes even worse on better cables.

[Audible Nectar]

I'm not as lucky as many of you....I have developed a taste for some of this stuff. Tube gear in particular has brought out the inquisitive nature in me, as I DO hear differences in these small things - caps, tubes, wires. In a good quality tube rig, the totality of these things can really add up, the cumulative effects being a significant upgrade....TO ME. I have become prone to seeking the best (at least within reason) possible parts in my builds where those choices can be made, and I find these tweaks serve my horns very well. Good tubes/caps/wires/gear = less artifacts > clean on the horns.

These changes are evaluated here OVER TIME. If I roll cables, those cables stay in for a significant period of time....10 sessions or so, unless it's an absolute flop. It's those small inner microdetails that take repeated and varied listening to fully comprehend. Same applies to any tube rolling - such rolls are thoroughly contemplated in advance, then left for many sessions to allow a full accounting of the changes. The initial impressions (first session or two) are often not what you arrive at after a few weeks.

I seem to have good luck here with copper formulas, and if I ever sought to experiment more cablewise, I would be seeking something with a bit of added warmth. The silver cables I've tried so far seem to go the other way (lighter bass, brighter top generally). And while I do like to experiment and don't mind spending a bit, Nordost Blue Heaven or Valhalla are likely cables my systems will never see.

All of these little things can be a slippery slope. Regardless of the scientific whys (or lack thereof), it's a most interesting topic here.

[Mallette]

ANector, I fully agree with you. Over my years here I've come to appreciate the incredible diversity of this hobby. For me, I listen entirely to the music. Some listen entirely to the equipment. Everyone else is somewhere in between.

It is this very diversity that makes this place great. When I need to replace something or add, I pay attention to the equipment types. I weigh that against my own emphasis on source material and the cost of attaining accuracy as I see it, then spend the cost of accuracy and, if I have it, a bit on that which I find of merit from the equipment folks. It's never failed yet.

That said, I am still of the opinion that the cost of an interconnect or conductive cable should be the cost of the copper plus the cost of shielding, insulating, etc. and a profit. Not a lot. For recording, I spend a bit extra for Mogami. Nothing magic, but they weave a very flexible cable and insulate it with a very pliable insulation that makes it very easy to handle, wind, and store. That is worth a premium when you are laying out a 100' of mike cable and then having to coil it up for transport.

Dave

[DrWho]

but I do feel that like better amps, or
speakers, better cables just give you more of everything. More bass,
more presence, more detail and a lot more air and soundstage
information.

You mean in a quantifiable sense, or just purely qualitative? If qualitative, do you mean with bias or no bias?

The
only reason I ask is that there are a lot of quantifiable attributes
that can be correlated to having more or less of anything in the list.
Now I'm not trying to say that if the quantifiable attributes indicate
no reason for something to sound different, then it must not sound
different.....However, the influences of bias certainly have a huge
effect on perception.

An intellectually honest scientist/engineer
will hear a difference and then find a way to quantify that difference
so that he can do it again in other applications. I personally have not
come across any difference in cables that couldn't be explained with
existing knowledge, nor any sonic difference that I couldn't find a
measurement that changed too.

I also agree with Dave that it's bogus to tell someone they're not hearing something.

Anyways,
with this perspective, I would be extremely interested to do a cable
shootout. I would also love the opportunity sometime to make
measurements ahead of time, predict an audible correlation, and then
verify the prediction through blind listening...I think there would be
a lot to be learned there in regards to the audible correlation of
data. I find that I go through cycles of learning as I come across new
sounds that didn't jive with my previous assumptions and incorrect correlations.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

The anti-cables look like the exact wire used in Solen litz inductors. Should be very cheap to try out.

Isn't the wire in the Solen inductors stranded? Anti-Cables are solid wire. Someone said it's like transformer wire so maybe it's the wire he uses in the Zero Autoformers.

edit: Just did a search and found one report saying the wire is 12ga. enameled magnet wire.

I meant to say solid core. Come to think of it, I have a pair of these somewhere that came with an amp. I wonder where I put them.

[Mallette]

but I do feel that like better amps, or
speakers, better cables just give you more of everything. More bass,
more presence, more detail and a lot more air and soundstage
information.

You mean in a quantifiable sense, or just purely qualitative? If qualitative, do you mean with bias or no bias?

The
only reason I ask is that there are a lot of quantifiable attributes
that can be correlated to having more or less of anything in the list.
Now I'm not trying to say that if the quantifiable attributes indicate
no reason for something to sound different, then it must not sound
different.....However, the influences of bias certainly have a huge
effect on perception.

An intellectually honest scientist/engineer
will hear a difference and then find a way to quantify that difference
so that he can do it again in other applications. I personally have not
come across any difference in cables that couldn't be explained with
existing knowledge, nor any sonic difference that I couldn't find a
measurement that changed too.

I also agree with Dave that it's bogus to tell someone they're not hearing something.

Anyways,
with this perspective, I would be extremely interested to do a cable
shootout. I would also love the opportunity sometime to make
measurements ahead of time, predict an audible correlation, and then
verify the prediction through blind listening...I think there would be
a lot to be learned there in regards to the audible correlation of
data. I find that I go through cycles of learning as I come across new
sounds that didn't jive with my previous assumptions and incorrect correlations.

Mike, if you did the setup for such an experiment I'd make every effort to be there. You speak the voice of reason and science here on all points, including the fact that just because it cannot be measured it cannot be heard.

But if it can't be measured, it also cannot be assigned a standard value.

Dave

[winchester21]

Going from HT 2 ch "CD analog" with receiver power- to Carver/ B&K outboard power- in the 2ch mode- night and day- but still garbage

Going to 2 ch 30 yr old mac SS power form above- night and day- like 40 %

Going to tubes powered by SS mac pre amp- night and day again- 30%

Going to a Peach Pre from a mac SS pre- night and day again- 20 + %

Throw another 20 % for the jolida tube CD.

Changing to the Blue heaven wires over the lowes copper.... maybe single digits of improvement.. not really sure

At the same time i went through and changed every interconnect wire to high end monster- which I do not like but happen to own- wasted cash. Dont really know the result- Sounds pretty good- i am not changing back to see.- if I were going to "roll wires" I would change everything to the best that I could afford. maybe then- I would see a difference.

The total effect of the wire changeover had maybe some effect overall. But it is now to the point that I would have to spend a thousands dollars to get single digit percentages of improvement.

Yesterday- I went back to sqyare one and listened to a CD through the HT system/ DVD player just to see where I had come in terms of improvement in 2 ch listening which sparked the upgrade bug into tubes and heritage. The difference was truly amazing.

IMHO- The difference will be greater realized in low powered tube setups. I will find out soon and report back.

[Hifi jim]

These changes are evaluated here OVER TIME. If I roll cables, those cables stay in for a significant period of time....10 sessions or so, unless it's an absolute flop. It's those small inner microdetails that take repeated and varied listening to fully comprehend.

Yes I agree Audible. I made this point earlier in the thread and feel this is maybe why some who've tried different cables have not fully appreciated their contribution. For the best effect, for me, I like to leave a new cable in the system and forget about it for a while and enjoy the music. Two weeks, a month, etc. later remove the new cable and replace it with the old and usually then it will become quite clear what differences are heard.

I seem to have good luck here with copper formulas, and if I ever sought to experiment more cablewise, I would be seeking something with a bit of added warmth. The silver cables I've tried so far seem to go the other way (lighter bass, brighter top generally).

I too, have had little luck with silver or silver plated cables with Klipsch speakers, they are as you describe a bit lean for some horns. Silver plated interconnects however, can sound quite good depending on the other components in the system. I thank you for adding your experiences here.

[Hifi jim]

For recording, I spend a bit extra for Mogami.  Nothing magic, but they weave a very flexible cable and insulate it with a very pliable insulation that makes it very easy to handle, wind, and store.   That is worth a premium when you are laying out a 100' of mike cable and then having to coil it up for transport.  

Dave, I use Mogami guitar cables too. Love their Neutrik Silent connectors which allow me to hot swap guitars without having to power down my tube amps, and as you say they are very flexible and easy to handle. I refuse to go wireless!

[Hifi jim]

You mean in a quantifiable sense, or just purely qualitative? If qualitative, do you mean with bias or no bias?

The

only reason I ask is that there are a lot of quantifiable attributes

that can be correlated to having more or less of anything in the list.

Now I'm not trying to say that if the quantifiable attributes indicate

no reason for something to sound different, then it must not sound

different.....However, the influences of bias certainly have a huge

effect on perception.

An intellectually honest scientist/engineer

will hear a difference and then find a way to quantify that difference

so that he can do it again in other applications. I personally have not

come across any difference in cables that couldn't be explained with

existing knowledge, nor any sonic difference that I couldn't find a

measurement that changed too.

I also agree with Dave that it's bogus to tell someone they're not hearing something.

Anyways,

with this perspective, I would be extremely interested to do a cable

shootout. I would also love the opportunity sometime to make

measurements ahead of time, predict an audible correlation, and then

verify the prediction through blind listening...I think there would be

a lot to be learned there in regards to the audible correlation of

data. I find that I go through cycles of learning as I come across new

sounds that didn't jive with my previous assumptions and incorrect correlations.

DrWho, I'm unfortunately at a loss to speak intelligently about the scientific reasoning for cable A sounding different than cable B. My practice has been to buy product Y, place it in my system and use it for a period of time. After a good amount of listening time, I replace Y with the former (X) and listen for some time again. Usually this takes long enough that I forget which cable is even in the system, or perhaps it's just not what I'm most concerned about, unless there is poor sound that distracts me from listening. If I have a bias for anything, I think it would be whatever costs less as I'm far from a millionaire and would rather spend money elsewhere. Unfortunately, it's been my experience that I prefer what usually costs more... of course there are exceptions to this as well, and again it's always about synergy, but also a mega buck cable for some reason doesn't sound good in a mid-fi system to me, much the way an inexpensive cable doesn't sound great in a mega dollar system. Confused yet? Me too. [] If you're interested, and able to use half meter RCAs, I'd be happy to add you to the list of members giving the BHs and PBJs a spin.

[russ69]

Audible Nectar says; I seem to have good luck here with copper formulas, and if I ever sought to experiment more cablewise, I would be seeking something with a bit of added warmth. The silver cables I've tried so far seem to go the other way (lighter bass, brighter top generally)."

HiFi jim says; " I too, have had little luck with silver or silver plated cables with Klipsch speakers, they are as you describe a bit lean for some horns. Silver plated interconnects however, can sound quite good depending on the other components in the system. I thank you for adding your experiences here."

Well that makes 3 of us with the same experience. Silver cables and Klipsch may be a bit too sterile. I guess we are all working under the same delusion! Funny how we all came to the same consensus. Must be the Kool-Aid, eh?

Thanx, Russ

P.S. Hey Audible Nectar, try Cardas 300b (just in one place like pre to amp) if you want something warmer. It really brings out the middle, pure tube sweetness...........

[Hifi jim]

Well that makes 3 of us with the same experience. Silver cables and Klipsch may be a bit too sterile. I guess we are all working under the same delusion! Funny how we all came to the same consensus. Must be the Kool-Aid, eh?

Russ, can you please prove that you drank Kool-Aid and not water. Did you do a double blind test? [] I'm happy you've chimed in with your results, I wish some others who are using, or have used cables will add their 2 cents. I'm curious what speaker cables are you currently using? I've heard reports similar to yours concerning the 300b, I'll have to try them someday.

[russ69]

Speaker cables? I'm using Audio Quest Type 4 (very inexpensive) on two of my systems. Nice midrange, detailed but not overly so, good bass, nice top end. Very nice with Klipsch (tame the horns without losing the good stuff). They seem to be a good match with horns or brighter systems. I have tried some much more expensive speaker cables but they were just too dry, not musical. I've come to the generalization that the cable costs should be matched to the system cost. Really expensive cables on a cheap system doesn't work and cheap cables on a top system doesn't work either. I'd sure like to spend an afternoon with Khorns and a box full of cables, man I'm sure I could tune those corner horns to perfection.

Thanx, Russ

[Hifi jim]

I've come to the generalization that the cable costs should be matched to the system cost. Really expensive cables on a cheap system doesn't work and cheap cables on a top system doesn't work either.

I completely agree Russ. I think cables are like any other component, they seem to work well with similar class products. Hey, did those custom Heresies you ordered get made yet?

[russ69]

HiFi jim asks; "Hey, did those custom Heresies you ordered get made yet?"

Amy says they are scheduled to get built this Friday April 24th. I wonder how long it takes the finish to dry?

Thanx, Russ