Mallette Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 Gentlemen, we call all agree on one thing. The music will sound exactly as good as the worst thing it went through on the way from the instrument to your ears, and nothing you can do will fix it unless it happened in your system. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedball Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 As Mr. Ellington would have said: if it sounds good it IS good.[] I think it's a grand idea to take someone up on borrowing some audio gear for a small cost just for the fun of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hifi jim Posted April 23, 2009 Author Share Posted April 23, 2009 I think it's a grand idea to take someone up on borrowing some audio gear for a small cost just for the fun of it. ... and that was the original premise of all this. Still no takers though... I'll pm my info tomorrow Pat if nothing changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 How much are those oranges again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcarlton Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 I am offended because I don't think Denon made cables. Take a look at this. Pretty nice Denon cables. The customer reviews are priceless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody_Mack Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 From another forum and thread: "For 225.00 this would be a low risk venture into rolling cables...." Well, for some of us, $225 is not necessarily a low-risk adventure when it comes to cables. I use the Yard-Master with the bare ends....less than 10 bucks....got the white jacket, looks very stylish! Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hifi jim Posted April 24, 2009 Author Share Posted April 24, 2009 By the way Jim.............what is retail on those Nordost? $199 retail. The PBJs are $89. Of course these can be found for about half of retail and sometimes less on Audiogon. I agree that some cables retail prices are exorbitant... but aren't lots of things in hi-fi, or almost any specialty hobby for that matter. Ever compare prices of a simple stainless screw at a marine store vs. a hardware store? Free market, charge what people are willing to pay... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 Take a look at this. Pretty nice Denon cables. The customer reviews are priceless. Beat you to it! [] But the customer reviews are awesome! Thanks for that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastlayne Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 Some of those reviews are hilarious, but you don't have to be a customer to review them. In fact, I don't think many of them would be in a humorous mood after they bought it and read they could have used a regular CAT5 jumper in place of the proprietary Denon Link cable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hifi jim Posted April 24, 2009 Author Share Posted April 24, 2009 If you like to read customer reviews: http://www.audioreview.com/mfr/nordost/speaker-cables/blue-heaven/PRD_116554_1584crx.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hifi jim Posted April 24, 2009 Author Share Posted April 24, 2009 And another relevant review: http://www.audioreview.com/cat/cables/interconnect-cables/kimber-kable/pbj/PRD_116726_5827crx.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hifi jim Posted April 24, 2009 Author Share Posted April 24, 2009 One more, but check out audioreview for thousands of legit reviews: http://www.audioreview.com/mfr/kimber-kable/speaker-cables/8tc/PRD_116464_1584crx.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winchester21 Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 Quick note- switched my nordost BH/ 12 ga copper Lowes variety back and forth in my tube setup after reading this thread using a CD with a particular high note content. IMHO the Nordost does definitely carry more emphasis on highs than the copper. No difference with bass or mids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted April 26, 2009 Share Posted April 26, 2009 Caps can measure the same but sound very different. Must be all those cap ads I've been seeing... Can you provide any examples of caps that measure the same, but sound different? That would be the first time I've heard that claim. I've come across caps with the same capacitance that sound very different, but those differences can easily be accounted for by other measurements (whether it be the Q, dissipation factor, ESR, temp coefficients, microphonics, etc...). I want to make a point and I really mean no disrespect by it, but since you mentioned you're not an engineer and don't really care to be (nothing wrong with that), I kinda find it amusing that someone not familiar with measurements has the audacity to say that hearing and measuring never correlate. In fact, it's really the same irony as the engineer saying you don't hear any difference because of the measurements he's taken [] If you've not done the measurements yourself, then I really can't see how one can make any qualitative comments about measuring....including the fact of things measuring the same. Btw, the same goes for wire....any time I've heard a cable make a difference, it's been readily quantifiable with existing measurements. You just gotta make sure you're taking a meaningful measurement....for instance, the gauge of the wire isn't meaningful....nor is the color or the factory it was made in, or the price, etc... I also wanted to throw out a quick thought.....if you can hear large differences between wire, then isn't it possible that there is something wrong with the system? Systems are designs with specific input and output impedances with the goal of negating any effects from the wire. If the sound changes with the wire, then the gear has failed at one of the most fundamental design goals. I think many would be surprised by just how much "audiophile gear" out there doesn't even come close to adhering to the standards.....and I think a lot of the system synergy stuff is a direct result of all that ambiguity. I just wanted to throw that thought out there as it really helps my engineering mind rationalize some of the adament audiophile claims. Btw, I also agree with the notions that some differences aren't necessarily readily heard in a quick A/B. You need to have source material exciting the area of difference in order to hear the differences. Music is all over the place so as we dial in smaller and smaller things, there is less time where the difference can even be heard.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macho Nacho Posted April 26, 2009 Share Posted April 26, 2009 Caps can measure the same but sound very different. Must be all those cap ads I've been seeing... Can you provide any examples of caps that measure the same, but sound different? That would be the first time I've heard that claim. I've come across caps with the same capacitance that sound very different, but those differences can easily be accounted for by other measurements (whether it be the Q, dissipation factor, ESR, temp coefficients, microphonics, etc...). I want to make a point and I really mean no disrespect by it, but since you mentioned you're not an engineer and don't really care to be (nothing wrong with that), I kinda find it amusing that someone not familiar with measurements has the audacity to say that hearing and measuring never correlate. In fact, it's really the same irony as the engineer saying you don't hear any difference because of the measurements he's taken If you've not done the measurements yourself, then I really can't see how one can make any qualitative comments about measuring....including the fact of things measuring the same. Btw, the same goes for wire....any time I've heard a cable make a difference, it's been readily quantifiable with existing measurements. You just gotta make sure you're taking a meaningful measurement....for instance, the gauge of the wire isn't meaningful....nor is the color or the factory it was made in, or the price, etc... I also wanted to throw out a quick thought.....if you can hear large differences between wire, then isn't it possible that there is something wrong with the system? Systems are designs with specific input and output impedances with the goal of negating any effects from the wire. If the sound changes with the wire, then the gear has failed at one of the most fundamental design goals. I think many would be surprised by just how much "audiophile gear" out there doesn't even come close to adhering to the standards.....and I think a lot of the system synergy stuff is a direct result of all that ambiguity. I just wanted to throw that thought out there as it really helps my engineering mind rationalize some of the adament audiophile claims. Btw, I also agree with the notions that some differences aren't necessarily readily heard in a quick A/B. You need to have source material exciting the area of difference in order to hear the differences. Music is all over the place so as we dial in smaller and smaller things, there is less time where the difference can even be heard.... Dr. Look you're not talking to just plain Jim, this is HiFi Jim, the whole hifi is part of his persona. He hears things and more importantly he hears things from his cables, sure he is not an engineer, he didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night, but that is ok. Heck I spent the last 2 months working in a lumberyard. He does not want to be bothered by science or numbers, just music being delivered by shiny great looking cables, so whats wrong with that? Nothing by my book. Just my .02 from a hopeful Kimber Rep, I need this new job, cause the lumberyard sucks and I hate splinters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted April 26, 2009 Share Posted April 26, 2009 He does not want to be bothered by science or numbers, just music being delivered by shiny great looking cables, so whats wrong with that? Nothing by my book. I have nothing wrong with that either...... The problem is when "he" (in the generic persona sense) starts talking about things (measurements) with which he admittedly has no experience. I am perfectly fine not talking numbers, but if you are going to bring them up, then I think it completely fair to address the false assumptions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ69 Posted April 26, 2009 Share Posted April 26, 2009 DrWho sats; ".....if you can hear large differences between wire, then isn't it possible that there is something wrong with the system?" No, there is nothing "wrong" with my system, or my hearing! Thanx, Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastlayne Posted April 26, 2009 Share Posted April 26, 2009 When Jim said "measure the same" I took it to mean capacitors of the same value or those made by different companies that can be interchanged for a given application. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hifi jim Posted April 26, 2009 Author Share Posted April 26, 2009 Can you provide any examples of caps that measure the same, but sound different? That would be the first time I've heard that claim. I've come across caps with the same capacitance that sound very different, but those differences can easily be accounted for by other measurements (whether it be the Q, dissipation factor, ESR, temp coefficients, microphonics, etc...). I should have been more precise with my chosen words perhaps, but I was referring to caps of equal value. Mistake on my part for not fully understanding the other associated measurements made on capacitors. I kinda find it amusing that someone not familiar with measurements has the audacity to say that hearing and measuring never correlate. Never correlate? If you can find my quote as such, I'd be interested in reading it. If I recall my statement was that in a hobby that is all about listening, measurements seem rather meaningless... perhaps not to the scientific minded such as yourself, but certainly to those interested solely in listening and tweaking their systems for the maximum benefit of musical enjoyment. I've never been one to agonize over the measurements of any of my equipment, as I've never found any consistent correlation between measurements and listening enjoyment. I also wanted to throw out a quick thought.....if you can hear large differences between wire, then isn't it possible that there is something wrong with the system? Systems are designs with specific input and output impedances with the goal of negating any effects from the wire. If the sound changes with the wire, then the gear has failed at one of the most fundamental design goals. What wire then meets your standards for proper measurements? Does all 12 awg zip cord measure the same? Is this what the manufacturer intended us to use, or do many manufacturers use their own set of parameters with respect to input and output impedances? I just wanted to throw that thought out there as it really helps my engineering mind rationalize some of the adament audiophile claims. The audiophile claims made here by myself and others are the result of extensive listening and experimentation. Those who have shared their experiences here have all had very similar findings and I'm less than surprised by that fact. While measurements may prove useful to some users, in some instances, I've never had need for such and I'm glad as that is one less distraction from the musical aspect. If I had to scientifically rationalize every system change I've made, I'd never get anything done. [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedball Posted April 26, 2009 Share Posted April 26, 2009 Jim, My electronics are stacked out in the open so it was quite easy to swap cables. Thanks, it was interesting to hear for myself the difference. I will drop the package at the Indpls. downtown Post office tomorrow afternoon and it will be headed back your way. Thanks again! Pat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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