Another opinion about cables...

[Fastlayne]

Can someone, (anyone !!!) please provide a link to a site or post a document which proves that in a double blindfolded test it has been shown that a group of human beings have been able to tell the difference between different cables or speaker wire.

Just one.

Thank you.

Don't think anyone was blindfolded, but I found this one interesting:

http://online.wsj.com/public/article_print/SB120044692027492991-Po6L667z7U6W9ZfTfXBmeCKlV80_20080214.html

[psg]

However, you can do something very cheaply and easily on your own to inform your self on this issue. Purchase a 50 foot roll of "26ga. speaker wire" from Radio Shack. It costs about $6, I think. Now, go to the hardware store and buy enough 12ga. zip cord to connect your two speakers. First connect them with the zip cord and listen. Then divide the RS roll in half, and connect each half (25ft) to one of your speakers. Listen again.

Although not every person will hear the difference, even some of the people with Klipsch speakers might be able to hear the difference between these two ordinary wires. If you hear no difference you can move on. If you do hear a difference, then imagine we simply assign an artificial value to that difference. Let's just call it "10 units of difference" between 26ga and 12ga.

Now comparing the 26ga to 14ga might yield a bit less difference - let's call it "8 units of difference," and comparing it to 16ga might yield 6 units of diffference, and so on until you are comparing the same wire, where there is 0 units of difference.

Now imagine that some people can easily hear 10 units, some can easily hear 5 units and some might even easily be able to hear 1 unit of difference. Accuity and other issues account for this difference "sensitivity."

As for any kind of AB testing, blind or not, that "tool" has no use in comparing audio products. It doesn't work becuase it inherently doesn't comprehend the right model for how our hearing/brain interface actually works.

The problem with that example is that there is a tremendously easy to measure difference in resistance between 25 feet of 26 AWG and 10 feet of 12 AWG; there's a ratio of 62 between the two! Now do that measurement ratio again with 12 AWG and expensive cable?

[psg]

However, you can do something very cheaply and easily on your own to inform your self on this issue. Purchase a 50 foot roll of "26ga. speaker wire" from Radio Shack. It costs about $6, I think. Now, go to the hardware store and buy enough 12ga. zip cord to connect your two speakers. First connect them with the zip cord and listen. Then divide the RS roll in half, and connect each half (25ft) to one of your speakers. Listen again.

Although not every person will hear the difference, even some of the people with Klipsch speakers might be able to hear the difference between these two ordinary wires. If you hear no difference you can move on. If you do hear a difference, then imagine we simply assign an artificial value to that difference. Let's just call it "10 units of difference" between 26ga and 12ga.

Now comparing the 26ga to 14ga might yield a bit less difference - let's call it "8 units of difference," and comparing it to 16ga might yield 6 units of diffference, and so on until you are comparing the same wire, where there is 0 units of difference.

Now imagine that some people can easily hear 10 units, some can easily hear 5 units and some might even easily be able to hear 1 unit of difference. Accuity and other issues account for this difference "sensitivity."

As for any kind of AB testing, blind or not, that "tool" has no use in comparing audio products. It doesn't work becuase it inherently doesn't comprehend the right model for how our hearing/brain interface actually works.

The problem with that example is that there is a tremendously easy to measure difference in resistance between 25 feet of 26 AWG and 10 feet of 12 AWG; there's a ratio of 62 between the two! Now do that measurement ratio again with 12 AWG and expensive cable?

[Don Richard]

Don't think anyone was blindfolded, but I found this one interesting:

http://online.wsj.com/public/article_print/SB120044692027492991-Po6L667z7U6W9ZfTfXBmeCKlV80_20080214.html

The thing that strikes me about this test is how sloppily it appears to have been run, I was not there to inspect his setup, but it appears from reading the article that two separate, identical systems were used. That would mean that they were displaced from each other by some distance so that the sound would not be emanating from the same point in space. There was no mention of the method used to ensure the same acoustic output (in a properly designed blind test this must be balanced to within .2 dB). Additionally, the participants in this were asked which sounded "better". A properly done blind test should only determine if any difference could be heard. The brand and model of the two "$2000 CD players" were not identified, and niether was the source material. The amps, speakers, and cables were, however.

[Don Richard]

As for any kind of AB testing, blind or not, that "tool" has no use in comparing audio products. It doesn't work becuase it inherently doesn't comprehend the right model for how our hearing/brain interface actually works.

So you are saying that two pieces of audio equipment cannot or should not be compared? If so, then there should be no reason for upgrading a component in a sound system since the psychoacoustic system in humans could not differentiate between the two. That sure takes a lot of fun out of the hobby, doesn't it?

However, you can do something very cheaply and easily on your own to inform your self on this issue. Purchase a 50 foot roll of "26ga. speaker wire" from Radio Shack. It costs about $6, I think. Now, go to the hardware store and buy enough 12ga. zip cord to connect your two speakers. First connect them with the zip cord and listen. Then divide the RS roll in half, and connect each half (25ft) to one of your speakers. Listen again.

Although not every person will hear the difference, even some of the people with Klipsch speakers might be able to hear the difference between these two ordinary wires. If you hear no difference you can move on. If you do hear a difference, then imagine we simply assign an artificial value to that difference. Let's just call it "10 units of difference" between 26ga and 12ga.

Whoa! you just set up a comparison. And you said that such a comparison was invalid.

[jacksonbart]

The problem with that example is that there is a tremendously easy to measure difference in resistance between 25 feet of 26 AWG and 10 feet of 12 AWG; there's a ratio of 62 between the two! Now do that measurement ratio again with 12 AWG and expensive cable?

That's the point. To be able to easily demonstrate what the subject is about to people who say they can't hear the difference between wires. In order to understand the principles of an idea, you need to show the most obvious example if people aren't grasping the idea.

In all things subjective, change occurs by degree and is continuous and infinite. It's absolutely no surprise that many people do not hear differences in equipment and setups, but it is something else all together for those same people to assert regularly that no such differences exist (for anyone else).

I pointed to the simplest example I could think of to show the idea. As you get any of these comparisons closer and the units of difference shrink, it doesn't change the idea, only the ability to appreciate it.

There is a much more simple and direct way to test the differences in cables, buy set of Kimber, attach to the left speaker, now buy some zip cord and attach to the right speaker. Now sever the zip cord and listen.

[Mallette]

The problem with that example is that there is a tremendously easy to measure difference in resistance between 25 feet of 26 AWG and 10 feet of 12 AWG; there's a ratio of 62 between the two! Now do that measurement ratio again with 12 AWG and expensive cable?

That's the point. To be able to easily demonstrate what the subject is about to people who say they can't hear the difference between wires. In order to understand the principles of an idea, you need to show the most obvious example if people aren't grasping the idea.

In all things subjective, change occurs by degree and is continuous and infinite. It's absolutely no surprise that many people do not hear differences in equipment and setups, but it is something else all together for those same people to assert regularly that no such differences exist (for anyone else).

I pointed to the simplest example I could think of to show the idea. As you get any of these comparisons closer and the units of difference shrink, it doesn't change the idea, only the ability to appreciate it.

There is a much more simple and direct way to test the differences in cables, buy set of Kimber, attach to the left speaker, now buy some zip cord and attach to the right speaker. Now sever the zip cord and listen.

Hmmm... No difference.

Dave

[psg]

The problem with that example is that there is a tremendously easy to measure difference in resistance between 25 feet of 26 AWG and 10 feet of 12 AWG; there's a ratio of 62 between the two! Now do that measurement ratio again with 12 AWG and expensive cable?

That's the point. To be able to easily demonstrate what the subject is about to people who say they can't hear the difference between wires. In order to understand the principles of an idea, you need to show the most obvious example if people aren't grasping the idea.

In all things subjective, change occurs by degree and is continuous and infinite. It's absolutely no surprise that many people do not hear differences in equipment and setups, but it is something else all together for those same people to assert regularly that no such differences exist (for anyone else).

I pointed to the simplest example I could think of to show the idea. As you get any of these comparisons closer and the units of difference shrink, it doesn't change the idea, only the ability to appreciate it.

The fact that there is an audible difference between 26 and half the length of 12 AWG is not proof that there is an audible difference between plain 12 AWG and expensive 12 AW, even to a lesser degree that only few people can detect. That's my problem with the analogy. You take it for granted that the same effect occurs only to a lesser degree. Yet using 12 AWG has likely solved the resistance (and inductance) problem of using long lengths of 26 AWG, so using expensive 12 AWG need not change anything further.

[psg]

I don't know anything about the two items
you mentioned - "12AWG" and "expensive 12AW." I have no idea what
either of those things are, or really what you mean at all. Isn't
obvious I wasn't referring to your mention of two items that are
entirely UNKNOWN to me? I mean, let's be at least reasonable here,
ok?

Sorry, that's "AWG" on both counts. It just means wire gauge (or size).

Now
maybe you are asserting that your "12AWG" and "expensive 12AW" are
physically identical and therefore subjective identical. You might be
right, but I certainly have no information about either the physical or
subjective qualities of those items, so obviously I have no comment
about them!

That's exactly what I meant.

[Don Richard]

Do you run out to the mall each weekend to stop people from wasting money on diamonds just because your cubic Z looks just as good?

No. And if the cable guy would sell his product an an expensive ornamental accessory I wouldn't give a hoot about that either. But they aren't doing that. At the price of some of these cables they ought to be diamond encrusted.

[wpines]

What 3 magazines?

[psg]

Well Don, I feel safer knowing you are out there policing the audio neighborhood!

Maybe we can rig you up a special suit or something?

If he gets one I want one too!

[seti]

Why does everyone think they have to police the "cable guys" in particular? You don't think some $10,000 speakers aren't a ripoff?I don't get it.

I think because it is such a simple device and they are easy targets.

[DrWho]

If he gets one I want one too!

Yeah - maybe a big red S for SuperCableCop or something.

lol [Y]





I think you make a valid point Mark...what really is the motive of bashing anothers (false perhaps?) euphoria?

I
know I'm usually just venting a little frustration...usually from a few
different factors that seem to revolve around a realist perspective vs
seemingly image driven motives. I've heard plenty of systems bragging
about the nuances of minor things (like wire) when the rest of the
system sounds like utter garbage...and everytime I run across someone
claiming they're not one of the wannabes, it's still the same result.
Yes I know, some of the items necessary for a truly high-end system are
simply impractical for a normal living room and are super expensive and
hard to do, but dang, the way people talk about the refinement of their
system (and especially the wires) would make one think that everything
else is just as near to perfection.....but it never is. Mythbusters did
prove that you can polish a turd, but that doesn't mean it's gonna
smell good. I guess I just feel like some are so proud of their
polishing work, but it's still a turd...I dunno, am I supposed to
appreciate it?

I know I'm over-generalizing to make a point...maybe I should
just let everyone think the emperor actually has clothes on? What's the
harm really? People are just having fun, right?

Perhaps I take
audio engineering too seriously, but without correlation to numbers
it is impossible to design something that you know will sound freaken
awesome.

[laager]

I have not read the entire thread. I presume the follwing link from a McIntosh engineer has already been posted. If it has, or if not, it deserves posting again:

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

[Mallette]

If he gets one I want one too!

Yeah - maybe a big red S for SuperCableCop or something.

lol

I think you make a valid point Mark...what really is the motive of bashing anothers (false perhaps?) euphoria?

I know I'm usually just venting a little frustration...usually from a few different factors that seem to revolve around a realist perspective vs seemingly image driven motives. I've heard plenty of systems bragging about the nuances of minor things (like wire) when the rest of the system sounds like utter garbage...and everytime I run across someone claiming they're not one of the wannabes, it's still the same result. Yes I know, some of the items necessary for a truly high-end system are simply impractical for a normal living room and are super expensive and hard to do, but dang, the way people talk about the refinement of their system (and especially the wires) would make one think that everything else is just as near to perfection.....but it never is. Mythbusters did prove that you can polish a turd, but that doesn't mean it's gonna smell good. I guess I just feel like some are so proud of their polishing work, but it's still a turd...I dunno, am I supposed to appreciate it?

I know I'm over-generalizing to make a point...maybe I should just let everyone think the emperor actually has clothes on? What's the harm really? People are just having fun, right?

Perhaps I take audio engineering too seriously, but without correlation to numbers it is impossible to design something that you know will sound freaken awesome.

Well said, Doc.

Dave

[jacksonbart]

Wait, you can polish a turd?

[BuyOtherSoundEquipment]

Secondly, as to the "high cost" of things with limited benefits, I can point to hundreds of luxury items in the marketplace with a terrible cost to function ratio: diamonds, Rolex watches, Bugatti cars, yachts of all kinds, and oh yeah, million dollar speakers and hundred grand amplifiers.

I have no opinion about cables, but I'm going to have to disagree about the cost-to-function ratio deficit on the Bugatti:

[stan krajewski]

I'll ask again.

Could someone please post here (not google) just one link to an article of a blindfolded test which confirmed that people can hear the difference between wires?

I'm not talking about differences in gauges. Based on the distance from the speaker to the amp, one should use the correct "thickness". Nobody's arguing that. I'm talking 13 cents per foot 12 gauge zip VS $100 per foot 12 gauge boutique.

Thanks again.

[Don Richard]

Well Don, I feel safer knowing you are out there policing the audio neighborhood!

Maybe we can rig you up a special suit or something?

Only if it's diamond encrusted and I get the Bugatti for a police car[au]