Another opinion about cables...

[Hifi jim]

This should have never escalated into a philisophical discussion. We are talking about speaker wire & cables. Get a grip!

For the umpteenth time, all you need to do is to post one link which at least give everyone here something tangible to base their decision as to whether or not they should spend $3000 (or whatever) dollars for speaker wire. And still 15 pages later - nothing, nada zilch!!! 

Trying to win this argument with this hodge-podge of logic pulled from every source and orafice possible, is pityful at best. Anyone looking in at this thread from the outside has to be wondering what the hell happened here. However, this is a perfect example of what happens when you can't prove a simple point, start losing badly and then resort to extemes just to save face.

For the umpteenth time: use your ears. Go and listen to cables at your local dealer, better yet try a pair in your own system. Either you hear the difference or you don't. If you do this and are unable to hear a difference, say so. Either, you've already tried and concluded that you are unable to differentiate one cable from another, or the cost difference made such a change a poor value to you, or you are simply being obstinate... which category do you fall into then? Those who have tried, posted their findings and were trampled by the naysayers claiming this or that. In theory, many cd players should sound the same. Transports should make no difference in sound. Amplifiers of the same spec should sound the same. We know these to be false. Why, after numerous reports both here and countless others on the web, do people still doubt what millions of people have claimed? Remember, that the early part of this thread was about me offering cables for the mere price of shipping to anyone with an open mind to try for themselves. Funny how none of the naysayers here took me up on that offer.

[Mallette]

I fully agree with Jim and disagree with Stan. I think this thread has (for the most part) demonstrated the civilized discourse that is possible in a highly diverse community.

While the current fad of "everyone is a winner" irritates me, this is an example where it is true. Whether music head or equipment head, there's been opinions from all points of view and in between (bi-curious?).

No one in this Forum has a lock on TRVTH. Music and the experience of listening to it is diametrically opposed to science, and while science has a considerable role to play in the design and construction of equipment, even there our scientific basis is pretty limited.

In my case, I've yet to hear a difference from any interconnect that was electrically sound...but perhaps I am just deaf.

Dave

[JBryan]

The Cable War Saga...beyond the wires.

The camps have been established and the banners unfurled yet again but what really motivates these armies and why, after numerous battles, do the soldiers always return to the same camp - unfazed by the day's exchanges and undeterred in their devotion to their viewpoint?

In the extremes, you have the "Physichotics" and " Le Auralists" camps. These soldiers are rarely seen on the field of battle as their weapons are of little use or in the case of the L'auralists, non-existent. The "PHYCO's", easily identified by the slide rules protruding from their pocket-protectors, hold fast to their notes from high school physics class and will occasionally shout something about the exchange of energy through electron-transmission and throw zip cord over the barricade to no one in particular. The auralists have built a fine camp and find no reason to leave save for a dry-cleaning run every week or so. Their camp is unfortified and mostly quiet though they have an elaborate security system that protects an assortment of vastly-overpriced speaker wire in their treasury. Recon patrols have reported hearing low-key chants like "if it sounds good, it is good" which is always followed by "ya know, Duke Ellington said that" and sometimes " I thought it was Louie Armstrong" and "Whatever, please pass the Brie" or "OH! Is that Stilton?!" There have been sightings of an auralist wandering out of the camp and onto the battlefield after a particularly engaging wine 'n cheese party, usually described in a disheveled (though still very nice) uniform with some wine stains on the lapel. These poor souls are quickly dispatched, dismembered and disemboweled by a combatant from the Cable Atheist camp.

The Cable Atheists (they eschew any attempts to shorten their name) are the self-ordained fact police whose camp is located within close proximity to the PHYCO's though there is little or no communication between the two camps. Its rumored that these two groups were once united as evidenced by the similarities of their uniforms but the CA's broke away when they found new weapons. Strewn about the tents are huge coils of insulated copper wire stamped with names like Monster , Radio Shack and Romex (?). Away from the battlefield, they are often seen in camp prostrated before an array of dusty electronic equipment repeating the mantra..."all that is measured - and nothing more". On the field, they carry calculators and wear a curious-looking helmet that incorporates a set of monitor visors that cover their eyes and filter out any erroneous information that may skew the data stream. The helmets are quite cumbersome and tend to cover the wearer's ears and the monitors act as blinders, preventing sideways glances so the army enters the field in tight single-file formations and matches in a very straight line toward their arch-enemy, the Cable Alchemists.

The ALCHY's are a curious lot in that they have the same weaponry as the Cable Atheists but only use them for show. Though they seem innocent enough, they are the ones who usually instigate these encounters and take great pleasure in calling out the Cable Atheists. When not on the field, they busy themselves scouring the internet and magazines searching for reviews and discussing the cable du jour, touching on such topics as Metallurgy, Annealing, Dialectics, and Impedance-matching. These discussions are somewhat incestuous and agreement abounds with "there must be something more... something more" often quipped throughout. These are the true warriors and more often than not, a single combatant enters the field, exalting the virtues and nuances that they have heard from a cable, newly forged from some mysterious process and often with an exotic name.

The lone combatant is quickly joined and congratulated by his crew as the Cable Atheists mass on the horizon. The battle begins simply enough with the Cable Atheists demanding documentation and the relevant measurements. The ALCHY's respond with a brief description of the listening experience and begin comparing the new cable with previous endeavors but they never get to finish as they are shouted down with accusations of incompetence and self-delusion. The battle quickly escalates with some ALCHY's spouting opinions while their comrades throw articles, reviews and white papers to back them up. The Cable Atheists are able to thwart the onslaught by slashing through a good deal the documents and stamping them "Unverified", "Non-measurable Data" and "Opinion-only". The rest are left strewn on the ground unnoticed as the Cable Atheists are unable to see them through the filtered visors they wear (d@#n helmets again!).

The battle may rage on for weeks, even months or spurt on and vanish within a few hours but when the dust settles, everyone returns to the same camp and a stalemate has been reached once again. No quarter has been gained nor given and there is no victory to celebrate nor defeat to mourn.

But is there anything else at play here? An unnamed source who claims contact with or has infiltrated each camp has come forward and shocked the audio world by stating that the origins of this aged conflict can be traced back to 2 factors - Money and Fear....really just fear but money always seems to play a part. Stay tuned....

[jacksonbart]

Everybody Wins!!!!. Yay!!.. Yay!!!.. Yaaaayyy!!!!! Everybody!!!!.. Wins!!!!.. Yay!!.. Yay!!! I wanna go to Hawaii!! Yay!! Win!!! Yay!!... Yay!.... Yay.... ... yay..... yay... ya.... ??? .....

[Fastlayne]

The Cable War Saga...beyond the wires. ....

But is there anything else at play here? An unnamed source who claims contact with or has infiltrated each camp has come forward and has shocked the audio world by stating that the origins of this aged conflict can be traced back to 2 factors - Money and Fear....really just fear but money always seems to play a part. Stay tuned....

Speaking of money, you might want to consider submitting that to some audio magazines for publication. I enjoyed it, thanks.

[DrWho]

The AB test is a convenient way to draw a line between what matters a lot and what doesn't matter much at all. The fact that it is unreliable for science is irrelevant. If you can't remember the difference a cable made a few weeks later, then it doesn't matter. Those claiming that the cable made a huge easily rememberable difference have other problems with their system.

Btw, the reason I didn't requrest a demo of the cables going around is because I don't use RCA anywhere in my system.

[Coytee]

I don't use RCA anywhere in my system

I've got several converters I could sent you... [A]

[Mallette]

The Cable War Saga...beyond the wires. ....

But is there anything else at play here? An unnamed source who claims contact with or has infiltrated each camp has come forward and has shocked the audio world by stating that the origins of this aged conflict can be traced back to 2 factors - Money and Fear....really just fear but money always seems to play a part. Stay tuned....

Speaking of money, you might want to consider submitting that to some audio magazines for publication. I enjoyed it, thanks.

OK, I'd like to know of an audio magazine that would publish something that would offend a significant amount of their revenue stream. I'd subscribe...

I think "Listener" was the last one.

Dave

[Mallette]

The Cable War Saga...beyond the wires.

That's a dandy piece of writing! I like it!

I liked it, too, but he left out my group, the Apathetics, who sit in the line of fire on an island in the Alpha Ocean calmly listening to music and never get involved unless one of the other groups disturbs the waves with too much sturm und drang.

Dave

[Guest David H]

War Operation Plan Response.

[Guest David H]

The Cable War Saga...beyond the wires.

I love thisStephen Falken: Did you ever play tic-tac-toe? Jennifer: Yeah, of course. Stephen Falken: But you don't anymore. Jennifer: No. Stephen Falken: Why? Jennifer: Because it's a boring game. It's always a tie. Stephen Falken: Exactly. There's no way to win. The game itself is pointless! But back in the war room, they believe you can win a nuclear war.

[Blvdre]

....and "Whatever, please pass the Brie" or "OH! Is that Stilton?!"....

I'll hang out with the phycos, at least until the cheese runs out, then I'm gone...

[sredmyer]

I always find these cable threads to be both interesting and informative (even if I do not understand a good portion of that information).

I must admit that I am no golden eared audiophile and through many changes in gear have only ever noticed a difference in sound (aside from ability to play louder) when I changed speakers.

However I read somewhere a few years ago of a private A/B test someone did where they compared ultra-high dollar cables (I do not remember the brand but that doesn’t matter here) against zip cord. In the test a self professed golden-eared audiophile was able to correctly identify which cable was being used 53% of the time (shear chance would have allowed him to be right 50% of the time). This however was not what was interesting about this test. The designer of the test (after having run the first set of comparisons whose results are shown above) ran a second set of tests. In this second set of tests (the same listener was used for the testing) the person running the test purposely allowed the subject to “think” he knew what cables where being used for some of the cable changes. In this test the listener was 100% accurate in picking the ultra-high dollar cables on the instances he was allowed to “know” which cable was in use. Problem is for that test the ultra-high dollar cables were never actually used.

I agree with Mallette, I do not doubt that others can hear a difference…but I can not so I will save my money for more music.

Steve

[stan krajewski]

I've got no idea what you are talking about. Why do I have to post a link to anything? If you want links to articles or posts where people recommend various wires costing "$3000 or whatever" just go Google it on your own.

Fair enough. You don't have to do anything. So I "googled". Every blindofld test supports the fact that you can't hear the difference.

Here's a concept, and yes I'm sorry to say it is "philosophical." It's called direct experience. It means you don't have to wait for anyone to prove something to you - you can directly experience it yourself. Two guys can talk about how wet water is, and I suppose a guy could demand a proof - maybe even demand a link to a website proving water is wet. But isn't that stupid when you can go jump in a lake and find out yourself? Audio gear is a pursuit best experienced directly - with one's own ears .A guy says he can "prove" his amp is better sounding than mine by sending me a bunch of links. I say, "hogwash" - let me experience it directly and that's how I will decide.

Does this include sticking your finger in an electric socket? Just to make sure you won't like it.

If someone provided you with a link to a web site saying $3000 wire sounded better than 2 cent wire, does that mean you'd go buy it? That's what you are implying. I think that would be silly speaking for myself.

Sorry, I couldn't find one credible site. Still looking.

And finally, don't you use a mouse? Can't you sliiiiide past threads you don't enjoy? Why do you care if its 15 pages or 150 pages?

I never said I didn't enjoy this thread and I have as much right to my opinion as you do.

And finally, you could make some bucks and gain untold respect by participating a blinfold test and maybe proving all the naysayers and engineers wrong.

[Mallette]

>And finally, you could make some bucks and gain untold respect by participating a blinfold test and maybe proving all the naysayers and engineers wrong.

Have you read the thread? Most proponents suggest that it is NOT an A/B thing, but a matter of time. Even though I am of the skeptical pursuasion, I can understand that. It took me from around 1986 to about 1996 to realize that CD's were slowly starving me to death for music. Once I realized it was not the technology, but the engineering, I learned to be able to judge rapidly whether a CD was a keeper or not technically. No small feet, as I'd been taught "perfect sound forever" and drunk the kool-aid. They all had no audible noise, wide dymamic range, etc., in short, that which we'd lookef for in an LP or tape as part of what constituted a first class recording. Now that I can hear the difference in CD's almost immediately, I find it hard to believe that there was a time when I assumed they were technically all the same.

I don't think it impossible that if someone loaned me a Jehovah Mark III interconnect they'd sold their soul for and I used it six months or so that I might (underline intentional) hear a difference. Of course, if they also left an ounce of heroin I'd get hooked on that as well, with equally ruinous results to my health and wealth, so I think I'll pass.

The only proponents of A/B testing for cables have been on the skeptic side. Not a big surprise. It it were a real battle, they'd probably choose the high ground.

All it takes to prove the skeptics (myself included) and naysayers wrong is one person who hears a difference. Truth is in the ear of the beholder.

Dave

[sredmyer]

All it takes to prove the skeptics (myself included) and naysayers wrong is one person who hears a difference. Truth is in the ear of the beholder.

Well said [Y]

I do not know who said it but the quote "Perception is reality" is gospel to me. If I perceive it is better (and can afford it) than I should have it. However if I can not perceive the difference then spending the money is just "one up the Jones's" foolishness.

Steve

[Don Richard]

All it takes to prove the skeptics (myself included) and naysayers wrong is one person who hears a difference. Truth is in the ear of the beholder.

Someone saying they hear a difference does not convince me of anything, People who make incredulous statements must prove to me that they actually do hear a difference, and they cannot do that. Therefore I remain skeptical.

[stan krajewski]

All it takes to prove the skeptics (myself included) and naysayers wrong is one person who hears a difference. Truth is in the ear of the beholder.

Someone saying they hear a difference does not convince me of anything, People who make incredulous statements must prove to me that they actually do hear a difference, and they cannot do that. Therefore I remain skeptical.

Thank you!

BTW, I too am a skeptic. NOT a naysayer.

I'm happy to stop here and wait.

[Mallette]

>Someone saying they hear a difference does not convince me of anything, People who make incredulous statements must prove to me that they actually do hear a difference, and they cannot do that. Therefore I remain skeptical.

So if someone says the building is on fire you want proof before you evacuate? Alrighty, then, nobodies gonna make a fool out of you. Perhaps a crispy critter, but you'll still have your pride.

Heck, I am one of the few who actually heads directly for the door when the alarm sounds, which has been false every time I've ever had it happen. However, it would only take one time real for it to have been worth it.

I have found trusting people who have no reason to lie to me pay off in returned trust and other dividends far more often than those who have taken advantage of that situation.

If I required proof of everything I am told I suspect I'd be rather lonely (adequate empirical proof of a woman's love is problematic at best, and I was certainly incredulous the day my beautiful wife said she loved me) and starving for social interaction (nobody wants to have to provide a citation or experiment to support everything they say).

I cannot say about you, as we've never met, but I can say that I find skeptics very annoying in general. While it's fine for you to believe one way or the other, it is not fine to say "It didn't happen because you can't prove it did."

I prefer objectivists who will judge the source rather than the statement when no other evidence is available. If someone says to an objectivist "This is the burial cloth of Christ," he'll not simply try to prove what it is not, but what it IS, which could be anything from a tablecloth from a winetasting or autopsy to the burial cloth of Christ. If he cannot gather data, he'll consider whether or not that person has told the truth in the past or has some reason to lie.

Perhaps I should have chosen something else, but I am not going to change it. Religion has nothing to do with that. I could just have easily said "A piece of a spaceship of non-terrestrial origin."

Dave

[SilverSport]

All it takes to prove the skeptics (myself included) and naysayers wrong is one person who hears a difference. Truth is in the ear of the beholder.

Someone saying they hear a difference does not convince me of anything, People who make incredulous statements must prove to me that they actually do hear a difference, and they cannot do that. Therefore I remain skeptical.

Thank you!

BTW, I too am a skeptic. NOT a naysayer.

I'm happy to stop here and wait.

Actually...they only have to prove something to you to prove it...if perception IS their reality...so be it...if it is not yours...mine...ours...so be it...some people actually liked the Edsel...

Bill