chuckears Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 A few years ago, I heard a pair of 50th anniversary Klipschorns (driven by an Aragon amp) at the local shop, and have been haunted by the sound ever since... I have owned Fortes for the past 20 years, and while sounding terrific, there was a realism to the material I was auditioning (specifically, the horns in the orchestra) that I have never heard with my Fortes, or with any other speaker. I have tossed around the notion of DIY-ing either LaScalas or Cornscalas for a quite a while, theorizing that it was the bigger midrange in the K-Horns that contributed to that sound, and am just curious as to whether there is a consensus as to what caused the orchestral horns to sound so real and live - if the K-Horn bass bin and room interaction was more a contributing factor, I would obviously be on the wrong track here... I have also discounted the Aragon amp as being the main factor in this listening experience - I have owned McCormack amps for several years, and do not feel the Aragon really has anything on McCormack, so to speak... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut-Throat Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 You are kind of on the wrong track.... The midrange is most of it, but the Khorn Bass Bin gives the Midrange the Texture. The reason I say this, is that I owned Klipsch Belles for awhile and they have the same Mid Range Horn as the Khorn. But the Khorn Bass Bin adds layers to the Midrange that gives it a fuller more complete and BIGGER Sound..... WIth that said the Midrange of the Khorn can be improved immensley with a Tractix Horn offered by Greg Roberts of this forum or in my case I added an Altec Horn and Driver which takes it to a whole nuther level. But the Khorn Bass Bin is the 'genius' in the design of the Khorn. Get the Khorns and then go from there............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 I agree with Cut, but let me add a wrinkle: I believe it's the SIZE OF THE BASS HORN MOUTH that makes the difference -- but IN THE MIDRANGE. The Belle and LaS have much smaller bass horn exits, plus they they don't have the supposed 8X multiplier effect on horn mouth size of being solidly in a corner and on the floor. One must recognize that the 400 and 500 Hz crossover points in all three speakers are WELL up into the midrange. 400 Hz is almost as high as the 440 "A" that orchestras tune to (play the A that's 2/3rds of an octave above Middle C on the piano, to see what I mean), and the Belle's 500 Hz is above that A. Thus, a whole lot of the midrange comes from the bass horn, including the fundamental tones of an important part of the range of most instruments. Thus, IMO, it's the much larger effective size of the Klipschorn bass horn that sets its midrange overall a step above the others'. That said, all three have the Klipsch magic of sounding like music through the entire musical range. IMO, the character of the sound/music doesn't change between the bass and mid horns -- they have a seamless continuity of character and sound quality that other speakers can rarely match. My $0.02 HO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 If you want the best in realism and live sound and have the space and the money, check out Jubilees or, for less money and less room, JubScalas. They perform well ahead of regular La Scalas and when you add a sub, you've got it all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody_Mack Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 I agree with Cut, but let me add a wrinkle: I believe it's the SIZE OF THE BASS HORN MOUTH that makes the difference -- but IN THE MIDRANGE. The Belle and LaS have much smaller bass horn exits, plus they they don't have the supposed 8X multiplier effect on horn mouth size of being solidly in a corner and on the floor. One must recognize that the 400 and 500 Hz crossover points in all three speakers are WELL up into the midrange. 400 Hz is almost as high as the 440 "A" that orchestras tune to (play the A that's 2/3rds of an octave above Middle C on the piano, to see what I mean), and the Belle's 500 Hz is above that A. Thus, a whole lot of the midrange comes from the bass horn, including the fundamental tones of an important part of the range of most instruments. Thus, IMO, it's the much larger effective size of the Klipschorn bass horn that sets its midrange overall a step above the others'. That said, all three have the Klipsch magic of sounding like music through the entire musical range. IMO, the character of the sound/music doesn't change between the bass and mid horns -- they have a seamless continuity of character and sound quality that other speakers can rarely match. My $0.02 HO. What a great post! At least I am in awe......someday.....I will own Klipschorns....sigh..... Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 Dr. Bruce Edgar commented on this a bit. He stated, horns and direct radiators have, respectively, different signature sounds. Therefore, mixing them creates some confusion to our ear-brain. Something isn't quite correct in the listening OTOH, he said that three direct radiators W-M-T do well too because their signatures match. PWK for some time had used a CW as a center for K-Horns and later went to recommending an LS or Belle, or use no center until you can afford them. Maybe Edgar and Klipsch were talking about the same thing. Wm McD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckears Posted October 27, 2009 Author Share Posted October 27, 2009 If it's going to take Klipschorns to get this elusive sound, I am in for more work and struggle than I anticipated; I do not have good corners to work with (the one real corner of my front soundstage has a window on the side wall about 20" from the corner; the other side, instead of having a corner, opens into a hallway on the back wall, and has my front-door entry on the side). I have seen the "false wall" mod to K-Horns, but since my entry-way leads right into my left channel, I'm afraid it would be a little awkward for anyone coming in through the front door. Jubilee's? I think we're into financial territory that I, with a daughter about to go to college (and presumably get married sometime in the next several years) am likely unable to venture. The search continues... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oblio Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 ; I do not have good corners to work with (the one real corner of my front soundstage has a window on the side wall about 20" from the corner; Don't worry about the window, it is not optimum but should work. One of my corners has a window about 12" from the corner, looks odd from the view from the back porch as half the window is a view of the KHorn back. YMMV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut-Throat Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 I agree with Cut, but let me add a wrinkle: I believe it's the SIZE OF THE BASS HORN MOUTH that makes the difference -- but IN THE MIDRANGE. The Belle and LaS have much smaller bass horn exits, plus they they don't have the supposed 8X multiplier effect on horn mouth size of being solidly in a corner and on the floor. One must recognize that the 400 and 500 Hz crossover points in all three speakers are WELL up into the midrange. 400 Hz is almost as high as the 440 "A" that orchestras tune to (play the A that's 2/3rds of an octave above Middle C on the piano, to see what I mean), and the Belle's 500 Hz is above that A. Thus, a whole lot of the midrange comes from the bass horn, including the fundamental tones of an important part of the range of most instruments. Thus, IMO, it's the much larger effective size of the Klipschorn bass horn that sets its midrange overall a step above the others'. That said, all three have the Klipsch magic of sounding like music through the entire musical range. IMO, the character of the sound/music doesn't change between the bass and mid horns -- they have a seamless continuity of character and sound quality that other speakers can rarely match. My $0.02 HO. I think we said exactly the same thing, except that you explained it much better. I explained it musically and you explained the science! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckears Posted October 27, 2009 Author Share Posted October 27, 2009 ; I do not have good corners to work with (the one real corner of my front soundstage has a window on the side wall about 20" from the corner; Don't worry about the window, it is not optimum but should work. One of my corners has a window about 12" from the corner, looks odd from the view from the back porch as half the window is a view of the KHorn back. YMMV ...this window has a faux-marble sill that sticks out a couple of inches from the wall; hence, I would be concerned about (not) being able to seal that side of a Klipschorn to the wall. Not so concerned about the view, as this window is blacked-out for HT viewing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oblio Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 this window has a faux-marble sill that sticks out a couple of inches from the wall; hence, I would be concerned about (not) being able to seal that side of a Klipschorn to the wall. Not so concerned about the view, as this window is blacked-out for HT viewing. Mine has a sill also, I just pull the speaker out along the orthogonal wall, I'm sure purists will complain but for my setup it is only 1/4 of the bass in a 2 ch setup, even less in HT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SET12 Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 A few years ago, I heard a pair of 50th anniversary Klipschorns (driven by an Aragon amp) at the local shop, and have been haunted by the sound ever since... I have owned Fortes for the past 20 years, and while sounding terrific, there was a realism to the material I was auditioning (specifically, the horns in the orchestra) that I have never heard with my Fortes, or with any other speaker. I have tossed around the notion of DIY-ing either LaScalas or Cornscalas for a quite a while, theorizing that it was the bigger midrange in the K-Horns that contributed to that sound, and am just curious as to whether there is a consensus as to what caused the orchestral horns to sound so real and live - if the K-Horn bass bin and room interaction was more a contributing factor, I would obviously be on the wrong track here... I have also discounted the Aragon amp as being the main factor in this listening experience - I have owned McCormack amps for several years, and do not feel the Aragon really has anything on McCormack, so to speak... My solution, I now use a Duelund VSF Copper Foil and Crites Autotransformers for my mids and a Duelund Graphite resistor across Crites Titanium tweeters. Below is the current look of my outboard networks. With my latest Duelund componets Mr. Duelund who has since passed away spent his life developing crossover components for extraordinary sound. And George at North Creek Music has done the same especially with his work with Inductors. And I might add though Solen Litz may have a superior Quality Factor the North Creek are simply more musical involving for me. Duelund often found that his networks often exceeded the cost of his drivers! And I can see why! All I can say is, to my project, it has surpassed all my expectations and beyond. The "Fortes" are like a thoroughbred race horse for me. I had the opportunity to hear the P39F Palladium's with an Argon amp. I was surprised at what one of its watts had to offer! And I'm sorry to say My own SET Mono's were more dynamic and informative watt for watt in contrast to the Argon amp. But some would say its the P39's low end that maybe a factor there. My networks are expensive but at slightly less than 1/10 of the P39F's price they yield for me some very some of the most extraordinary sound in my 35yrs of audio, In the end my moto has become "If you want Extraordinary sound you must do Extraordinary things!" Cheers SET12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 A few years ago, I heard a pair of 50th anniversary Klipschorns (driven by an Aragon amp) at the local shop, and have been haunted by the sound ever since... I have owned Fortes for the past 20 years, and while sounding terrific, there was a realism to the material I was auditioning (specifically, the horns in the orchestra) that I have never heard with my Fortes, or with any other speaker. I think that the higher efficiency of the Khorns compared to the Fortes contributes a lot to the difference you heard. The dynamics are improved with the Khorn and that makes them sound more realistic. Certainly the things mentioned by others are factors, and combined with efficiency, simply make the Khorn a better speaker than the Forte. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 ...this window has a faux-marble sill that sticks out a couple of inches from the wall; hence, I would be concerned about (not) being able to seal that side of a Klipschorn to the wall. Not so concerned about the view, as this window is blacked-out for HT viewing. I had to deal with that, too. The K-horn butts against the wall for the first 22" from the corner, and then starts to slant away from it.I "solved" my sill problem by carving a cut-out in the side grill frame on that side and letting the grill cloth wrap over the sill. I'm not sure what to do if/when I have to move the horn someplace else. Fortunately the window molding, which projects out less than the sill, was just far enough from the corner to let me slide the horn all the way in. The same thing can happen with a heat register or baseboard too close to the corner. I had to improvise side grill cutouts there, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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