Custom IEM's being discontinued?

[Coytee]

Who knows... maybe some day C3 will come back as a heritage product. That would be my wish.

Cool... Jubilees in one corner, C3's in the other! [Y]

How are we going to work on a center C3?

[BLSamuel]

Who knows... maybe some day C3 will come back as a heritage product. That would be my wish.

Cool... Jubilees in one corner, C3's in the other!

How are we going to work on a center C3?

Drill a hole and create an "ear" canal in your forehead? Would you like to upgrade to the 5.0 or 7.0 surround sound?

[AuD]

That is really up to Knowles and Sonion not up to UE, Klipsch, ER, Westone, etc. The more drivers required the more money Knowles and Sonion makes... so full range may never get here... not to the extent that I would like to see.

Yes, I have heard/listened examined etc all the above products u mentioned (minus the custom 3) & yes they sound good & I use a Cowon for my MP3 player.

I never did understand why Klipsch used the term "custom" for their non-custom product...

[Professor Thump]

What you may not know AuD is that each armature is a custom design which includes a "K" number on the driver. I specify ports, spouts and motors. EQ us also done with crossovers on duals and acoustic filters on ALL models. So it is not as simple as you are stating.

Did you know that the nozzle and eartip also impacts the sound signature of the product?

Sonion and Knowles do the hard lifting but please don't trivialize our jobs as engineers at Klipsch.

Thanks...

[Technocrafts]

AuD, what you are saying may be true, but personally I never heard a single driver iem that would approach the clarity, range and soundstage multiple BA solutions can offer. I'm not suggesting by any means that single driver plugs don't sound good, but by the law of physics a single transducer cannot perform trough the entire audio range even. Reportedly dynamic transducers offer wider range as opposed to BA transducers, but almost all of them I heard are bass heavy and lacking on the higher end. Likely the reason why some designs such as the UE Super.fi 5EB incorporate both.

[AuD]

and what you may not know, Professor thump, is that AuD = Doctorate of Audiology = a very intimate knowledge of balanced armature drivers. Which is probably one of the reasons why Dr. Mead Killion (Audiologist and founder of Etymotic Research) was one of the first to really make a market impact with the use of BA's in non-custom products. Which interestingly enough, his ER4 product used a single driver without any custom number prefixes on that particular product. So please don't trivialize our jobs, knowledge or experience with balanced armature drivers.

and yes of course I knew that the nozzle loaction impacts the sound signature... so does ear canal volume, and ear canal shape affect the sound signature as it reaches the tympanic membrane. (a lot of other factors, such as insertion depth, materials used for the head set dome etc, influences the sound quality too)

My statement still stands, economically speaking, it is better for Sonion or Knowles not to produce a full range product. That said, I have seen a some indications that they are interested in doing so. Recently Knowles introduced and new ED series with a tremendous amount of bass, when compared to the other ED series within that particular product family line. (I look forward to test driving that particular ED next week)

As to the other post pertaining to the laws of physics playing in to this scernerio, thus creating a need for multiple drivers.... Yes, there is some truth to this, but one should also consider other limitations, such as what frequency ranges are actually used in making recordings of music, the dynamic range of the average cochlea in lets say 16yr + male etc etc. These limitations may at times, actually proceed the limitations created by the laws of physics.

[Technocrafts]

Wow, this tread is one of the most productive and also one of the most informative I ever participated in. Now you just made want to try the er-6. Amazon just recently had them on sale, I almost pulled the trigger on it. Damn, I'm so pissed off I didn't do it, but I head out to the local Apple store now and pick up a pair. I will post my finding...

[BLSamuel]

Welcome to the Headphones forum AuD.

As far as the name Custom for Klipsch's first IEM's using BA's I'm not sure Professor Thump had much say in that.

I would imagine most IEM's made use BA's built to the IEM manufacturer's specs and therefore are only sold to said manufacturer? I really have no idea.

That said, BA's for hearing aid use would I hope be pretty full range? Though the requirements and use are a bit different. Our youngest daughter may soon need a hearing aid. Her otologist is hoping she won't but her hearing is down quite a bit in her left ear compared to her right ear.

I just recently visited the Etymotic site to buy some Etyplugs hearing protection and read the part about etymotic being Greek for true to the ear or something to that effect - yet all in ear 'phones including Etymotics are round while one's ear canal seems to be more oval at least to begin with. Klipsch is the first manufacturer to realize that or use that in their designs.

Please provide your input as I'm sure it will be fascinating and educational.

Ben

[Technocrafts]

Excellent point Ben, while P.Thump made a major leap in the right direction by creating the oval tips, the next round of improvement in the iem lineup I want to see is around noise attenuation and better seal. With the exception of the image s-4, it is real pain and suffering to get decent seal with all of the earphones I own or tried in the past. The s-4's medium gels worked just fine from day one, I also tried the included double flanges just out of curiosity, but they did not perform any better, in fact, they got stuck in my ear canal. Among all the earphones I ever tried, the images are the most comfortable and they provide decent seal. Wish that Klipsch would start making oval tips that fit other types of earphones since no one else seem to have any interest to solve this major issue. It is so true that the ear tips have major impact on the plug's sound signature, unfortunately most of the time I get the best sound out of my gears with the gels that perform the worse, so I have to remove the plugs several time and re-set them during audition. UE's triple.fi is the worst offender among them.

[BLSamuel]

Technocrafts - welcome to the Klipsch Headphone forum.

Getting a good seel is very easy with any of the Image models... Image X10, Image X5, Image S4/S4i, Image S2/S2m. Just stick 'em in and wow. The first time I tried the Image X10, as the IMAGE prototype, I just stuck 'em in and great seal.

The Custom models (that unfortunately are being phased out) taeks a lot more work to get a good seal. It took me a long time to learn how to get a good seal with my Custom 2 and I can get a good seal farily easy now but it's harder for me to maintain than with the Image X10. I think in the case of the Custom 2 I need to get more aggressive in the angle I bend the bendable wire.

[Alathea]

I have a pair of Custom 2's on the way. I LOVE my S5's. In the last two weeks Ive had Shure SE115 and UE SuperFi 4's and Sony MDR-ex300's, and I keep coming back to yours.

I keep two pairs of ears-1 for home and 1 for work, and since I'm in a position where I could be testing/coding for hours OR have to pick up the phone every 1/2 hour to talk with clients aabout support issues, I have to have earphones that are comfortable and not a PITA. The Shure's are a pain to fit, the Sony's have a lousy warranty but fit well, the UE's have warranty issues with logitec supporting them. These S4's just 'work'.

That being said, im curious-do I have to consider orienting the gel on the earpiece up or down (horizontal or vertical) to mimic the shape of my ear canal, too? Since the gels are oval shaped, it would stand to reason that figuring out what orientation my ear canal was would more match up the shape of the gel and thus fit/sound 'better', though I can't imagine what that would 'not' feel like. I can't feel them in now. I keep reading that the 2's are "hard to fit" so even though I got a great price (From an AD) I hope I don't have to fiddle with them too much. In the regular product lineup, these were still a step up above the s4's, correct?

[Technocrafts]

Thank You Ben, it's a great community, I'm glad I found my way here. You right about the Custom models, I had at one point both, the C2 and C3. Initially I was torn between the C2 and Image X-5, opting for the C2 that I later upgraded to the C3. It took nearly a month to learn how to get the best seal with the C3, the large double flange offered the final solution. I was very happy with the C3s to the day they got stolen from me, so that was a good excuse to try the Image S-4 until I can get a replacement. Speaking of comfort and good seal, they just disappear in your ears as if they were not even there...awesome. I wander how the X10 would sound; I never had the chance to try those. (Maybe one day I find a good deal on them).

[Technocrafts]

You will find a marking on the shaft of the plugs as well as on the gels if you roll them back.When you push the gel on the plug, just roll it back slighlty and line up the two marks. You can wear them with the wires around your ears or just simply plug them in normally. Good luck and enjoy the sound!

[Alathea]

Cool-thanks. I was just sticking them on any old way.

[BLSamuel]

Technocrafts....

The Image X10 sound incredible. And they are incredibly tiny and if really disappear in your ears and are very easy to use. I have the Image X10 but prefer the sound of the Image X5. You may prefer the sound of the Image X5 as well as it's highs or mids and highs are closer to the C3 though the Image X5 may not have quite the bass of the Image X10 or C3 I'm not sure it's lacking.

Professor Thump (who loves bass) I think has stated he also prefers the sound of the Image X5 over the X10.

The Image X5 won't disappear (literally) in your ears like the X10 but are still a lot smaller than the Image S4. If you think the Image S4 are comfortable the Image X5 and X10 should be another big step up as they are both very small.

Just stick 'em in and awesome sound.

[AuD]

It is just my opinion, based on experience with working with BA companies, the "custom" prefixes are more used to prevent reverse engineering more than anything. No co. names mentioned, but intitially all IEMs BAD drivers listed commonly found BA drivers #s. So common one could go to digikey and purchase them! But I would say those days have change and I have seen the shifting of custom numbers being used more so. BTW the ability to use customized numbers etc is very costly.

BA for hearing aids, I would have to say are not really full range. Statistically speaking most hearing losse's are within the high frequency region and so as a result the response curves of a good portion of BAs have their peak freq. within the higher range (ie 2K Hz) The driver for the ER4 is much as what I discribed & in the realm of drivers, it really was/is a vanilla driver. (nothing spetacular about it)

That said, digital hearing aids have essentiallly on board EQ's that will allow Audiologists to adjust the freq response. (16 bands or more can be found in hearing aids)

I simply love IEMs and the world I live in the word "custom" means just that custom, from the ground up. Everything about the ear is unique per individual, even the placement and shape of cochlea is different from person to person. Ears all share some things in common, but ultimately they are anatomically unique.

Got a plane to catch,

AuD

[Technocrafts]

Ben,

The C3 actually is (was in my case) well balanced. It produced deep powerful bass, but the lower range was not as forward as you find it in the case of the Image S-4, it integrated into the sound spectrum flawlessly. I found the highs a bit rolled off as opposed to the C2 which sounded a lot brighter, a bit too bright to my taste. The C3 was my facto standard iem, only a triple driver can top their performance, at least for my preference, many others may disagree. I did hear the Image X-5 but only briefly and almost a year ago and definitely not for long enough to evaluate them.

The Image S-4 is small enough for me already, would they be any smaller I would need a pair of tweezers to remove them from my ears...I believe I also came across that post from P Thump in which he compared the X-5 and X-10. My next question is the sound stage regarding the higher tier Images, are they claustrophobic or they open up wider? Sound stage was the only aspect where I found the C3 lacking, maybe because I used them with the large double flange in my ear canal. Anyway, one day I will have one of them X-es for sure, maybe both...

[Technocrafts]

AuD,

I would have a question regarding iem armatures, though it may not be an intelligent one. I would just like to clear things up around the confusion with burn-in, a topic that often overwhelms many audio forums. Just as the UFO debates are divided to three groups: believers, non-believers and neutral who couldn't care less; The group of believers in this case would subject their new gear to many hours of pink-noise, high frequency-low frequency torment before they would even plug them in their ears. The group of the opposition would dismiss the procedure as myth, so I'm wandering who is right. My headphones and dynamic ear phones did improve over time, but with BA drivers I have a different experience. My Klipsch Customs, both, the C2 and C3 sounded a lot different after more than 36 hours, the initial bass heavy sound I heard right out of the box rolled off a great deal and the high range increased significantly. I had the Shure Se-530 in my possession for a short time, not long enough to hear any difference than their initial sound. The UE Triple.fi sounds exactly as it did almost two months ago when I heard them for the first time, except when I use different ear tips on them. I'm curious what would be an expert's opinion around this issue.

Thanks,

Techno

[BLSamuel]

Technocrafts,

What little bit I've heard the C3 I thought it had better highs, but really yes the C2 which I've used a lot have pretty good highs, it's probably more the mid's and lower high frequencies which are more pronounced and forward sounding? The C2 and Image X10 are the only models I've used for more than a few minutes but in brief exposure the C3 and X5 have more clarity or just more in the mids though I've often posted in the highs but the Custom 2 have plenty of highs so maybe just more pronounced mids in the C3 and X5.

Only a few minutes with both the S4 and S2 but first impression was very favorable for both.

I'm not sure about the soundstage.... pretty much in your head? But I do have a pretty big head. Phenominal sound with the Image X10 but not sure it gets out of your head or out of mine anyway. I think P Thump described the X5 as more forward sounding than the X10. Just sounded better and clearer to me? I'd like to try a set for more than a few minutes.

Depending on the ear gels I use the Image X10 can go in pretty deep. I've not had to use tweezers to get them out but I did get an ear gel shoved in there pretty deep - probably when I was listening to mostly the Image X10 and X5 along with my daughter at Pilgrimage 2008 and didn't lock one on correctly. I've not had that problem in normal use. Luckily P Thump had a very long narrow set of needle nose pliers handy though I think he said he's not sure he'd seen an ear gel stuck in that deep before.

Our youngest dauther has the opposite problem - with the extra small (they were never really available and I think not at all now) she prefered the X5 were too big for hear ear canals.

I sent my Image X10 home with a coworker to audition for the weekend. I hope she give them back. [] I did dig out my C2 and used them for a bit last week as I'd not used them in months and I'm not sure but think the C2 sound more like the X10 than the X5 sounds like the X10. Hard to tell though as it's been a long time since I'd heard the X5 and C3. A very long time.

[AuD]

AuD,

I would have a question regarding iem armatures, though it may not be an intelligent one. I would just like to clear things up around the confusion with burn-in, a topic that often overwhelms many audio forums. Just as the UFO debates are divided to three groups: believers, non-believers and neutral who couldn't care less; The group of believers in this case would subject their new gear to many hours of pink-noise, high frequency-low frequency torment before they would even plug them in their ears. The group of the opposition would dismiss the procedure as myth, so I'm wandering who is right. My headphones and dynamic ear phones did improve over time, but with BA drivers I have a different experience. My Klipsch Customs, both, the C2 and C3 sounded a lot different after more than 36 hours, the initial bass heavy sound I heard right out of the box rolled off a great deal and the high range increased significantly. I had the Shure Se-530 in my possession for a short time, not long enough to hear any difference than their initial sound. The UE Triple.fi sounds exactly as it did almost two months ago when I heard them for the first time, except when I use different ear tips on them. I'm curious what would be an expert's opinion around this issue.

Thanks,

Techno

I am going to whimp out on that one, and I forwarded your question over to Knowles. That said... I can tell you there is research out there that does show that the fidelity of the mics made by knowles will "shift" over time just by sitting on a shelf. But I do realize there is a difference between a mic and a speaker. That said, there is more than this than just a BAD shifting over x amount of hours of use. If you analyze capacitors and resistors, you will find that they have an estimated "life" span. Go to any web site selling them on a whole sale level and you will probably find that information. The point is, the sound quality may be changing due to cap/resistor life limitations rather than BAD SQ change. (or both)

It will be interesting to see what Knowles has to say... I would also like to put this question to bed.