Corner-loaded bass horn designs other than Khorn?

[John Warren]

AFT end view-

[John Warren]

Another AFT view, just not a speaker but still vintage-

[WMcD]

John, thanks for the picture of RV. It looks like quite a departure from the K-Horn.

On the subject of other corner horns, the is the JBL Hartfield. The first version had an option for a cheaper, smaller driver set up. Then there was a second version which had a simplified construction.

It is interesting to speculate why something like the Jubilee with two bass drivers took so long to be designed. The use of two drivers simplifies things.

My observation is that 15 inch drivers cost $100 or more in the early 1950's. Right now about the same but of course $100 was a lot of money in the day. Using two would be a budget buster.

The other corner horn way by Voigt in the late 1940's or so. It had a single 4-inch or 6-inch driver. It is my understanding that it used the back of the driver to energize a small tapped bass horn.

Wm McD

[DrWho]

http://www.google.com/patents?id=-2s2AAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

Fig.6 shows the measured response.

Klipsch stated that the peak to trough ratio in the range of 40hz~500hz was no more than 10dB.This looks correct, with 40hz being 10dB down from 250hz.

"The response curve of FIG. 6 was obtained with the loudspeaker on stilts apprximately one meter high, sound axis horizontal (parallel to the ground plane) and a B & K half-inch microphone three meters from the horn mouth."

First of all, an MWM on stilts sounds crazy and I would love to see that, but I bring it up to point out that it's a ground plane measurement...if you throw the MWM in a room corner, the mouth starts to look bigger and you start looking at about +6dB relative to nominal at 40Hz, which puts the F3 in the 32Hz-ish range if you EQ down the 40Hz peak. It'll also help smooth out the ~60Hz dip since the mouth reflection won't be as dramatic due to the loading of the room.

It's my understanding that the dip/peak/dip from 200Hz to 300Hz is due to the lack of vertical expansion through the horn, so I personanly would probably xover no higher than 150Hz or so, which works real well with the Lascala LF that doesn't do much below 100Hz. Time-alignment would be vital for bringing all the wavefronts together and maintaining full acoustic summation in the xover regions.

[pocket.change]

I'd have a hard time subjecting a EV Patrician to DJ duty,

when a pair of JBL 2220H's in the right box would be hard to

beat.

[John Warren]

John, thanks for the picture of RV. It looks like quite a departure from the K-Horn.

Wm McD

Actually, it's quite similar. The difference is that the Patrician does not have the rear "tail" board that wedges against the corner. The spacing here is maintained by the decorator enclosure. The bass unit is a bit larger too accommodating an 18" woofer.

I've got one sitting in the back of the garage, on a plastic pallet, with a tarp over it. It's been there for 12 years. Every six moths or so, I peek under the tarp to make sure that nothing is living inside. The thing overall is in restorable condition, all parts present and it's never seen water. My real interest was the decorator enclosure and how it was assembled.

The 1955 October copy of Audio has the complete plans for making the unit.

Also (just remember) the EV website publishes them too (the DIYer section).

[cfelliot]

Wasn't there another version (later?) of the Patrician with EVs 30" woofer?

[Lime Twig]

Thanks for all the pics of Khorn competitors from back in the day, John.

[John Warren]

Wasn't there another version (later?) of the Patrician with EVs 30" woofer?

Yes, the EV Patrician 800.

Fostex makes a 31.5" woofer (FW800HS) which should allow you to build a replica!

[djk]

"when a pair of JBL 2220H's in the right box would be hard to

beat."

Only if you don't like bass.

A pair of 2220s have no real bass, and no x-max either.

Because of the x-max the 2225/26/27 have about 10dB more maximum output below 200hz. The 2235 has more output than all of those below 50hz.

[Lime Twig]

I am going to make some statements no one will like.

A Klipschorn bottom with a K44E (recommended by Klipsch for this application) has more low end than the EV TL4050, it also has more low end than the MCM1900. The LaScala was used above 100hz.

djk, so you'd recommend a Khorn with a K44E driver as a sub? Could you tell me a bit about the 44?

I'd also be happy to hear any other suggestions you have for horn-loaded subs that would complement a La Scala nicely for dance music.

The club in question had a sunken dance floor (below grade), with concrete corners (ideal for the Klipschorn).

What club? Did I miss a post discussing a club?

[djk]

"What club? Did I miss a post discussing a club?"

I have installed many Klipsch systems in various clubs over the years.

At the time Klipsch recommended using the K44E for club use in the Klipschorn. The K44E is also used in the TSCM theater version of the Klipschorn. If I had concrete corners I might consider using the Jubilee as a sub. I would not use an MCM woofer section, or the EV TL4050. The most pathetic would be the suggestion to use the JBL 2220.

The EV 30W loaded Patrician is a novel idea, not really practical.See the right side of fig.3, that constitutes what was in the 30W version of the Patrician corner horn.

http://archives.telex.com/archives/EV/Speakers/EDS/30W%20EDS.pdf

For grins and giggles, here is a dual 15 cornerhorn design with a pair of high-power high-excursion drivers:

In reality, I would build or buy some tapped horns, or build some PPSL enclosures as seen here:

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g196/dkleitsch/CoePA-2009.jpg

And again, here:

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g196/dkleitsch/COE08-3.jpg

[djk]

"Yes, I was. I hadn't actually seen a frequency response curve. I liked
the relative ease of build and have a spot for a La Scala sized sub.
Do any of the Tuba builds measure well if you consider only up to 80 Hz
(or less)? "

"This is the (advertised) curve"

The pro sound shoot-out I posted the Tuba 24 graph from has also posted several of his other designs. None of them measure as advertised.

A tapped horn is much better than a small conventional horn. jbell has a one 4 x 8 sheet tapped horn challenge going on over at DIY audio, any of them would be preferable to a BFM design, and be easier to build. Here is a 2' cube entry:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/127908-jbells-set-four-tapped-horns-41.html

[mark1101]

Here is a curve I did recently of my MCM-3 Grand with MWM bass cabinets running K-33 woofers.

[jason str]

"Yes, I was. I hadn't actually seen a frequency response curve. I liked
the relative ease of build and have a spot for a La Scala sized sub.
Do any of the Tuba builds measure well if you consider only up to 80 Hz
(or less)? "

"This is the (advertised) curve"

The pro sound shoot-out I posted the Tuba 24 graph from has also posted several of his other designs. None of them measure as advertised.

A tapped horn is much better than a small conventional horn. jbell has a one 4 x 8 sheet tapped horn challenge going on over at DIY audio, any of them would be preferable to a BFM design, and be easier to build. Here is a 2' cube entry:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/127908-jbells-set-four-tapped-horns-41.html

The Tuba 24 sub is too small to keep up with LaScala's or better anyways
unless you are stacking multi cabnets, one of the bigger designs will
work much better for the application.

[mark1101]

I always see "keeping up" when people talk about subs. What exactly does that mean? I thought every sub I ever tried with my lascalas sucked. I didn't realize they were all probably actually OK until time alignment was introduced in a later system. If you don't time synchronize the sub..........they will probably all suck becuase you will get a sloppy out of time muddy mix of bass. Properly align them and the magic will happen. Then you will see they probably "keep up" just fine as long as they are properly powered. You shouldn't need much sub at all.

[Arkytype]

djk wrote: As we see above, the Jubilee would be even better than the Klipschorn for the bass.

I would aver (that based upon the curves) the Klipschorn has a slight advantage over the Jubilee.

From 35 Hz--100 Hz, the Klipschorn's response (relative to a 95 dB SPL) is +/- 3.25 dB while the Jubilee is +/- 4.75 dB. From 100 Hz to 500 Hz, the Klipschorn and Jubilee are mouth and mouth (sorry) at +/- 2.5 dB and +/- 3 dB respectively.

Granted that while the chamber at Hope can't produce reliable date below about 200 Hz, one can see the trends of the two designs in question track each other nicely down to 30 Hz or so.

If I were a bettin' man, I'd say the Klipschorn was crossing over to the squawker closer to 550 Hz rather than the traditional 400 Hz. See also that the squawker and tweeter levels appear to be about 3 dB too low.

Does anyone know the particulars of the test conditions? Input power/voltage, measurement distance,etc.?

Lee

[Lime Twig]

"What club? Did I miss a post discussing a club?"

I have installed many Klipsch systems in various clubs over the years.

At the time Klipsch recommended using the K44E for club use in the Klipschorn. The K44E is also used in the TSCM theater version of the Klipschorn. If I had concrete corners I might consider using the Jubilee as a sub. I would not use an MCM woofer section, or the EV TL4050. The most pathetic would be the suggestion to use the JBL 2220.

The EV 30W loaded Patrician is a novel idea, not really practical.See the right side of fig.3, that constitutes what was in the 30W version of the Patrician corner horn.

http://archives.telex.com/archives/EV/Speakers/EDS/30W%20EDS.pdf

For grins and giggles, here is a dual 15 cornerhorn design with a pair of high-power high-excursion drivers:

In reality, I would build or buy some tapped horns, or build some PPSL enclosures as seen here:

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g196/dkleitsch/CoePA-2009.jpg

And again, here:

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g196/dkleitsch/COE08-3.jpg

I've heard that tapped horns go very, very low, but that they trade this depth for a loss in efficiency. Is this right? Having the snap and kick of a high efficiency horn is what I'm looking for.

Love the chart for that dual 15" corner horn! Do you have drawings or pics of it?

Is the K44E still availble? How is it different from the standard 33?

[seti]

Don't take these as gospel because I did them and I'm an amateur at measuring. These are from jubs in my room. They are in corners. Crossed at 600.

The Jubilee is a big improvement over the Khorn especially in the low end. It feels different. I also still have my khorns and listen to them as often as
the jubs.

[mark1101]

Seti, lookin'good. That must sound pretty good bro.