2 inch driver/horn upgrade question

[Nat Denkin]

While you are using time-alignment, have you tried the Le Cleac'h approach that minimizes phase distortion. http://freerider.dyndns.org/anlage/LeCleach.htm

It is quite easy to set up if you have a DCX2496.

I am crossing over at about 300Hz and 5800Hz using the Crites woofer in a clone, a 212 Hz cutoff modified tractrix built by Greg Roberts with a BMS driver and Beyma CP-25 tweeters. Since I listen to CDs, I take the SPDIF digital signal to a DEQ2496 followed by a DCX2496 converting to analog at the output stages of the DCX2496. I am using 2 Crown D-75A and a Crown D-45 with merely wire to the drivers (no capacitors--I hear the slightest pop when I power off). I need to finish my Jamborees and have the kit from Pilgham Audio to replace the output of the DCX2496 with a remotely controlled 6 channel attenuator. I really like the sound and imaging and spend so much time listening, the Jamborees are progressing too slowly.

I also have ALK's Universal Filter and 1" trachorn. These provide excellent value for the money and I am keeping them in my second system when the Jamborees (with 4 more Crites 15" woofers) are completed to replace the bass bins. The 2" drivers and larger midrange horn allow me to crossover at 300Hz and I am very pleased with the results. For me they are also excellent value for the money.

For those that perfer vinyl and tubes, going active presents more problems as all analog amplifiers and filters add noise, and delays are much easier to do in the digital domain. Keeping it simple may be the solution there with passive crossovers driven by a pair of amplifiers with the soft glow of the tubes displayed. Aesthetics have a place in audio too.

nat

[Rudy81]

Nat, I used the Le Cleac'h technique while actively crossing my Khorns. I had set them up with the DCX 2496 in a three way setup. At the time, I was using a JBL 2470 driver for my mid driver and it could not go as low as I needed to with the Khorn bass bin. I had stumbled on the Le Cleach method and really enjoyed the much larger soundstage it produced.

I already have figured some numbers for my current 2 way DBB system but have yet to have time to play with those settings.

I too run my amps directly to my drivers...kinda scary at first. I originally used some capacitors to protect the drivers, but found that the caps do affect the low end of the drivers frequency response. So, I eventually did away with that. My Hafler and Crown amps are very quiet at turn-on and turn-off so have not had problems with the amps and drivers.

I also use SPDIF to send my .flac format lossless music from my HTPC hard drive to my preamp.

Have you started a thread on you Jamboree build? I'd like to see what you are doing in that area.

[DrWho]

For those that perfer vinyl and tubes, going active presents more problems as all analog amplifiers and filters add noise, and delays are much easier to do in the digital domain. Keeping it simple may be the solution there with passive crossovers driven by a pair of amplifiers with the soft glow of the tubes displayed. Aesthetics have a place in audio too.

There are some hardcore vinyl/tube lovers that have gone the active route, but it's not something for the feint of heart. Nevertheless, I agree that some people will probably prefer sticking to the passive route...

Btw, how do you control the volume right now when running the Behringers directly into your amps?

[greg928gts]

Btw, how do you control the volume right now when running the Behringers directly into your amps?

I know you didn't ask me, but I'm using a Creek OBH-10 remote controlled passive attenuator between the CD source and Behringer and it seems to work really well.

Greg

[Nat Denkin]

For those that perfer vinyl and tubes, going active presents more problems as all analog amplifiers and filters add noise, and delays are much easier to do in the digital domain. Keeping it simple may be the solution there with passive crossovers driven by a pair of amplifiers with the soft glow of the tubes displayed. Aesthetics have a place in audio too.

There are some hardcore vinyl/tube lovers that have gone the active route, but it's not something for the feint of heart. Nevertheless, I agree that some people will probably prefer sticking to the passive route...

Btw, how do you control the volume right now when running the Behringers directly into your amps?

The Crown's have attenuators for each channel and approximately the same change for each "click." When my wife comes in, it's about three or four clicks counter clockwise for each of the six attenuators.

nat

[Nat Denkin]

Have you started a thread on you Jamboree build? I'd like to see what you are doing in that area.

I've taken a few pictures...I will have to learn how to post them. They will show what it is like building bass bins in a dining room. It takes a very special kind of wife to tolerate the complete takeover of the room!

nat

[DrWho]

The Crown's have attenuators for each channel and approximately the same change for each "click." When my wife comes in, it's about three or four clicks counter clockwise for each of the six attenuators.

3 or 4 clicks from wide open? Or from where you normally listen at? I would think you'd normally have them below 12 o'clock and it would be quite loud, no? What hour do they get set to when the wife comes in? lol.

[66hr]

Talking about just sitting down and listening, I have had 5 different sets of XO's in my LS over the last 25 years. To my ears the ES networks are real music to the ears. The ES 4000 does seem to suit the K-400 best. I can understand that they may not be for everyone, but we're all a bit different when it comes to what we like. I do know that if it were not for these networks, I doubt that I still would be a member of the Klipsch family.

One thing that does stand out, is that Who likes to put his boot onto Al whenever he gets a chance.

[Rudy81]

I've taken a few pictures...I will have to learn how to post them. They will show what it is like building bass bins in a dining room. It takes a very special kind of wife to tolerate the complete takeover of the room!

nat

Wow, your wife must be a saint! If you get a chance start a new thread on your build. You post pictures by using the "Options" Tab on the reply page. Then, use the attachement button.

[greg928gts]

Some of you don't read and understand things very clearly.

Al K is the one who is actively attacking my business. When he makes a statement that someone is uneducated if they choose to use the 2" format for their Khorns, or when he says that it's a fact that a 2" format is not necessary, or he says if people want to waste their money on going to a 2" throat horn, etc... What business and product do you think he's aiming these comments at?

My comments to Al are reactionary. When he stops poking me in the back of the head over and over again, I'll stop reacting. It's like being in Jr. High School all over again. I'm not going to sit there and take his or anyone else's crap. I'll defend myself and my business. If some of you would put yourselves in my position, you'd understand that this is not a disagreement between two people, this is one businessman attacking another.

When have I said anything bad about ALK products? I think his products are fantastic and that's what I tell anybody who asks. By contrast, I have to explain to people that my horns are not "flimsy". Who do you think uses that word to describe Volti Audio horns? Right on Al's website, it is implied that other 2" horns (hmmm, I wonder who's horns he's referring to?) are made with 1/8" thick sides, and have resonance problems. I have to defend the quality of my products due to Al's misrepresentation of them. I don't do any of that to Al.

Do you realize that there's nothing stopping me or anyone else from putting together Universal kits to sell, or completed Universal networks? One could make an argument for using the name "Universal", but even that is not protected by a trademark. Building crossover networks with the ALK Universal design is not patented in any way. My point is that I have not in any way infringed on Al's business, yet he has infringed on mine. I built the ALK Universal networks with Al's permission, and I paid a $75 per pair royalty to do so. I didn't have to do that, but I did out of respect for Al's efforts in developing the design of the Universal network. Did I get the same respect from Al with the one single product that I developed and started selling? No. So for those of you who think this is a disagreement between two parties who are equally at fault, you are wrong. You don't know what you're talking about.

So when Al comes onto this forum and starts spewing his garbage about 2" horns, yes, you can expect me to defend my opinion about that format. I'll do it respectfully, and without losing my temper and using foul language, etc... As I have done here in this thread. My retaliation will stop when Al stops. If some of you don't like it, too bad. I'm not breaking any rules. I'm entitled to my opinion about all things audio, just like everyone else here.

Greg

[greg928gts]

and why the concern over this strife closing down a thread? I don't see anything here from anyone that warrants closing down a thread. As far as I can see, everything has been civil. Yes, there are strong disagreements, and a tiny bit of personal attack, but not enough to censor I don't think.

Greg

[KdAgain]

Whenever I get in a strong argument I always know I'm 'Right. I'm thoroughly convinced of it. Trouble is, the other person is just as convinced of his position. There is rarely a meeting of the minds! Just a lot of strutting and ruffling of the feathers.

The difficulty for both of you here is that you are businesses and you are only turning people off to consideration of your products. And further I believe both of your products somewhat compete with the owner of this Forum. Klipsch has been very gracious in hosting you here and I strongly suggest that you take any more of your disagreement offline.

Thanks,

Rod

[CECAA850]

Speaking for myself only, I've learned alot from reading both of your posts. I think you both are valued members of the forum and the forum would be worse off without either one of you. You both know infinitely more about audio and speaker construction than I ever will. That being said, I couldn't give a rats behind about your differences with each other and it's getting kind of old. You're both right, your both wrong, whatever. I'd do business with both of you if the need arose, but your not doing anything to promote your self images with these rants against each other. There IS a high road somewhere.

[greg928gts]

Whenever I get in a strong argument I always know I'm 'Right. I'm thoroughly convinced of it. Trouble is, the other person is just as convinced of his position. There is rarely a meeting of the minds! Just a lot of strutting and ruffling of the feathers.

The difficulty for both of you here is that you are businesses and you are only turning people off to consideration of your products. And further I believe both of your products somewhat compete with the owner of this Forum. Klipsch has been very gracious in hosting you here and I strongly suggest that you take any more of your disagreement offline.

Thanks,

Rod

I'm not saying I'm right and Al's wrong.

I'm saying that as long as Al is going to voice his opinion about 2" drivers as if it's fact, I'm going to be there countering. There's no other choice for me as I see it. I wish it were different, I'd like to be putting my energies elsewhere.

If this was happening to you, you'd be doing the same thing. If you didn't, you wouldn't survive in business. You've got to be able to hold your own against threats to your business. I've owned my own business for 24 years, trust me when I tell you these things. Six years after incorporating my building business name Design Concepts Co., Inc. a local builder in my area started doing business as Design Concepts and hung out a 4' x 8' sign saying so. Ahhh, excuse me? I don't think so. And so we had a few talks, and in the end, he changed his business name. Now if I had followed the advice of some here on the forum, I guess I should have said nothing and there would be two Design Concepts home building businesses within ten miles of one another, and can't we all just get along? Nope, sometimes you've got to defend your turf.

I agree with what you said about being allowed to talk about our products on this forum, and frankly I'm somewhat surprised about the tolerance.

Greg

[greg928gts]

Speaking for myself only, I've learned alot from reading both of your posts. I think you both are valued members of the forum and the forum would be worse off without either one of you. You both know infinitely more about audio and speaker construction than I ever will. That being said, I couldn't give a rats behind about your differences with each other and it's getting kind of old. You're both right, your both wrong, whatever. I'd do business with both of you if the need arose, but your not doing anything to promote your self images with these rants against each other. There IS a high road somewhere.

I agree. Al's knowledge of crossovers is invaluable. A real asset to this forum. If he really doesn't believe in the 2" format, ask yourself what is his motivation for the 2" Trachorn? I know exactly what he's doing (because he's told me in emails), I just don't think some of you are catching on to this. Again, it's not about right or wrong. I'm doing what I believe I must do to protect my business. If a few people are turned off by it along the way, I'm sorry about that. Nobody is required to read my posts.

Greg

[DrWho]

One the that does stand out, is that Who likes to put his boot onto Al whenever he gets a chance.

Not at all. I just feel the need to speak up when misinformation is spread...it just happens that Al is the most vocal about specific topics. Probably because he thinks the rest of the world just doesn't understand what he's trying to say....

[Deang]

The irony here of course is that Al sells a 2" driver and a nice horn to go with it - and instead of promoting them so he can make more money, he shoots himself in the foot by talking them down. I wonder what his motivation for that is - unless of course he really believes they're overrated. He also loses money because he sells less networks, since whether customers come to him or someone else for these bigger horns and drivers, they are certainly going to come to him for the filter. Btw, you don't have to have a patent on something to sue someone for profiting off of your intellectual property. I've known Al for many years, so trust me when I say this: If you start building and selling his designs without his permission, he'll put a boot into your rear end. He doesn't like lawyers, but he's not afraid to use them.

[Deang]

I forgot to mention that I'm suing Crites. I'm still looking for an angle.

[deafbykhorns]

[whatever55]

On topic....

Is there a 2" driver and horn that can be used with a Jubille as a two way system that does not need as much EQ as the K69 ( or EVDH1a) with the 402 ?