2 inch driver/horn upgrade question

[DrWho]

i have been following several of the different post pertaining to upgrading khorns to a 2 inch driver/horn and have been abit overwhelmed by all the information on different drivers and horns. im wanting to keep things simple and keep my khorns 3 way and continue to use a passive crossover. i have been looking for a drop in replacement to the k401/k55 that could work with a passive crossover such as the alk universal or alk jr. what is the opinon on going with the Selenium D408Ti 2" driver paired with one of the the selenium 2" fiberglass horns that bob crites sells. the specs say that the driver and horns are good from 400hz up so will this combo work with the passives that cross at 400hz ok? would this combo best the performance of simply upgrading to the trachorn 400s? thanks for any input

One of the issues I see is that a properly designed passive xover needs to compensate for the phase and impedance variations as well as the propogation delay in such a way as to provide complete acoustic summation in the xover band while not making the polars go all wonky. You're not gonna get that by trying to do drop-ins.

Trying to do a drop in without engineering the xovers is gonna sound different for sure, but not the full upgrade you should expect. Also, the polars on the Khorn LF and Khorn HF are a bit crazy to try and mate a MF to, which makes voicing extremely difficult. You can solve the MF/HF transition by going 2-way, but I think there is a lot of merit to the suggestions about also upgrading the LF.

I might also add that a 2" throat is gonna overload later than a 1", but you'll only see the full advantage with a more open throat design on the horn. Also, mating the internal area expansion of the driver to the horn is important too.

Well that's just my opinion anyway. If you end up going the original route, then we're here to help you out. Though I might add that it's a lot easier to see and correlate what you're hearing when you can measure stuff.

[Al Klappenberger]

"Funny
that he’s making a 2” horn now when I read his words that he doesn’t
see any benefit in a 2” over a 1”..........2” reigns supreme!"

I was forced to make a 2-inch horn because of the average uneducated persons thinking. "If a little is good, a lot must be better" so a 2-inch horn has got to be better than a 1-inch! The law of diminishing returns kicks in here. I consider pushing an upgrade worth $200 for $1200 or more as taking advantage of the Klipsch community. This is why I only offered a 2-inch horn AFTER so much "noise" was made about a 2-inch option. If somebody else is going to take this advantage just to make a buck, I will have to do it too! I will still tell people the truth as I see it. That's that a 2-inch horn is not better enough to cost so much, but If somebody else is going to offer one, I will offer a better one! The big problem here is that the K400 horn is so inferior to ANY good horn that ANY good horn people replace it with will get a good reputation. An example is the Cobreflex (spelling?) horn that is a double path horn that is folded. Even this horn has been used to replace the K400 successfully!

BTW:

"I’m finally ready to buy the V-Trac horn upgrade for my K-Horns to replace the horns I bought from Al Klap."

Let's see how happy this guy is after he listens for a few weeks and thinks about all the extra money he spent. Was it worth it? It will depend on how much money he has left in the bank. He also could have doped my 2-inch horn right into the same frame using the same screws he used to mount my 1-inch horn. Then there's the driver to consider! 2-inch drivers don't come cheap! Of course you could always jury rig the K55 on to the 2-inch throat. You can get away with that kind of stuff when you only need to go up to 6000 Hz, but is a jury rig what you really want when you are going for "the best"?

Another moot point:

"One of the issues I see is that a properly designed passive xover needs
to compensate for the phase and impedance variations as well as the
propogation delay in such a way as to provide complete acoustic
summation in the xover band while not making the polars go all wonky.
You're not gonna get that by trying to do drop-ins."

The human ear / brain is deaf to phase errors between components of a complex waveform. Your brain is not fast enough to sum up the instantaneous phases and amplitude of a single tone and it's harmonics. Only an oscilloscope can do that! The only phase you can perceive is that between to tones of the SAME frequency out of two separate sources using two ears! It's why a stereo has two channels to create a "stage" or stereo image! If only a single driver is making each component there is NO PHASE comparison to make because there IS ONLY A SINGLE SOUND! This is the
extreme-slope concept. Path length errors between drivers only generate fixed phase errors between between harmonics (complex component). Only if the path length is so extreme that the errors become extreme can you hear it. The example being the classic "tap dancer" phenomenon seen years ago with long straight low frequency horns in theaters where BOTH adjacent drivers where making the taping sounds at the same time. If the two drivers are making the same sound, as with all gentle slope networks, you will always hear everything twice. You hear it first from the driver closest to you. Your brain assumes it's an echo. It smears the sound and screws up the stereo image even if it's so short a time error that you can't resolve it a two separate sounds. Then there's the comb distortion issue. There is no comb interaction with a single source!

Al K.

[greg928gts]

I was forced to make a 2-inch horn because of the average uneducated persons thinking.

Insulting your customers is a great way to make sales. Why so grumpy Al?

I consider pushing an upgrade worth $200 for $1200 or more as taking advantage of the Klipsch community.

The V-Trac upgrade, in full, is a lot more expensive than $1200. Typical of many high-end audiophile offerings, things get more expensive and the returns a little smaller as you move up the scale. But that doesn't stop audiophiles, like myself, from refining their systems.

That's that a 2-inch horn is not better enough to cost so much, but If somebody else is going to offer one, I will offer a better one!

This, from a person who doesn't even own or listen to Khorns. Have you ever heard the products you sell Al?

Let's see how happy this guy is after he listens for a few weeks and thinks about all the extra money he spent.

This customer made these statements more than eight months ago. I have not had one customer say they were not happy with moving up to the larger format midrange horns in their Khorns. Some are more excited than others, but generally the consensus is that, yes it's expensive, but WOW, what a wonderful improvement in sound quality. Of course my customers are not generally formulating this opinion about their stereo equipment based on graphs and charts. They actually use their ears.

Greg

[Al Klappenberger]

Roberts,

I am not going to even bother to read your comments. I will just get mad!

I could outline one thing after another where other people led you by the hand to teach you about how make these horns, but it's not worth my time! You are an excellent cabinet maker and have a niche laid out for you making speaker cabinets and refurbishing old ones, but you had to jump into everyone eases niche instead!

I have already made my point about 1-inch versus 2-inch horns. I offer BOTH horns because I had no choice but do so! Let the buyer do some homework before he decides who to deal with!

I'm out of here be for Amy closes down this thread!

BTW: Please remove the implication from your web site that you have license to build and sell my Universal network. You terminated that license yourself out of spite for me having the audacity to build a 2-inch horn. NOW REMOVE ALK ENGINEERING FROM YOUR MENUS! You only have permission to sell the 10 sets you build under the license. NO MORE! You are NOT a distributor of my networks!

Bye!

Al K.

[PrestonTom]

This section is the "Updates and Modifications".

Maybe you fellows could move your infomercials to the "Garage Sale" section. Although it is amusing how you guys try to drum up business by yelling at one another.

[greg928gts]

I am not going to even bother to read your comments. I will just get mad!

No, com'on Al, please read my comments. You started this.

I could outline one thing after another where other people led you by the hand to teach you about how make these horns, but it's not worth my time!

Yeah, so? We all learn how to do things from others. I have many people to thank for their efforts in helping me, including you. I never moved in on anyone elses niche. In fact, I've gone to great lengths to make sure I didn't step on any toes when I got into this business. I have a whole stock of 3619 and 3636 autotransformers at my shop, but you don't see me advertising those for sale because Bob Crites sells them. I could easily buy Sonicaps and put together crossover upgrade kits, but again, Bob's got that covered. I buy all the components for Universal networks at the same prices you do. It would be very easy for me to put kits together and sell them, but you don't see me doing that, because I have respect for you. I have not gotten into building 1" tractrix horns, because there are already sources for those out there.

I developed (with the help of many people) one product for my own system that nobody else had available. One thing led to another and I ended up bulding them for other Khorns owners. I had a modicum of success with that product, and the next thing I know YOU are coming out with a competing product. You failed to show the same respect towards me that I showed towards you. YOU are the one who moved into someone elses niche.

The only reason I still haven't come out with my own 1" horn to compete against the Trachorn, and a crossover to compete against the Universal, is because I'm taking the high road here. I'm not the one badmouthing products. I've found my niche and I'm making sure the products I sell are unique enough. I think that's the proper way to do business.

You only have permission to sell the 10 sets you build under the license. NO MORE! You are NOT a distributor of my networks!

I haven't sold all ten sets yet. I know I paid you the royalties for all ten sets, but I only did that so I didn't have to keep track when I made sales. I think I have the right to use the Universal name on the ten pairs that I've paid royalties on. Don't you agree?

Greg

[peshewah]

My goodness!

[greg928gts]

My goodness!

Yeah, poor msutton! Wait til he gets back to this thread!

Greg

[Deang]

This section is the "Updates and Modifications".

Maybe you fellows could move your infomercials to the "Garage Sale" section. Although it is amusing how you guys try to drum up business by yelling at one another.

I'm not sure how that works exactly, it's not like people around here aren't already aware that Al and Greg build and sell stuff. If anything, I think the disagreements lead to confusion and cause people to put off their decision to move forward.

[garyeanderson]

This section is the "Updates and Modifications".

Maybe you fellows could move your infomercials to the "Garage Sale" section. Although it is amusing how you guys try to drum up business by yelling at one another.

I'm not sure how that works exaxtly, it's not like people around here aren't already aware that Al and Greg build and sell stuff. If anything, I think the disagreements lead to confusion and cause people to put off their decision to move forward.

Hi Dean

I think you pegged it, I was going to buy something for my Heavyweight La Scala clones but the more I read the more I just don’t know. This was a good opportunity to get some more opinions as to what it was I really needed for them. Then we get two of the respected contributors airing their business disagreements here and it kills the topic. Sad that folks can’t seem to get by there differences. If I were mom or dad I’d stop the car and make it clear that their behavior is not becoming of them and explain it terms that they both can understand. I like hearing from both of these people and seeing what they come up with. I don’t have the money for any of their gear but I guess if I did, I may vote with my wallet and shop elsewhere. If you have a different opinion then voice it, but please don’t slam someone else because theirs is different. It takes two or more to have a disagreement and both of you have a lot of experience to share, please just don’t share the differences here.

[Olorin]

Well put, Gary. I've learned two things from this thread -- one, that Greg and Al need to get a room, and two, that I can avoid a whole lot of drama by going the P.Audio route. It might not sound as nice as either of the wooden horns, but then I won't get in the middle of a bunch of clawing and smeared lipstick either.

[Rudy81]

Well put, Gary. I've learned two things from this thread -- one, that Greg and Al need to get a room, and two, that I can avoid a whole lot of drama by going the P.Audio route. It might not sound as nice as either of the wooden horns, but then I won't get in the middle of a bunch of clawing and smeared lipstick either.

It is a bummer that these gentlemen can't work out their differences. Both have a lot to offer us novices. Both have helped me at different times during my upgrades, and I really appreciated the assistance. I have owned Al's 1" Trachorns and auditioned Greg's 2" horn. In my case, cost became a big issue and thanks to Chris first brining up the P. Audio horns I was able to change my system to the two way I wanted.

My audio 'memory' is useless, and I can't even offer an opinion of what each of the horns sounded like in comparrison to one another. Someone would have to have all three with identical drivers on the same system to really be able to compare the wood horns vs. the plastic. I would hazard to guess the wood horns would sound better, but who knows without testing.

For my current budget, the P. Audio horns are working out just fine.

[Speakmeister]

I like a little spirited debate. It is great that these forums are not over-moderated like some others and such a thing can go on for a while.

It is great that people are opening up to different modification paths for the heritage line. there are many fine drivers and horns out there to try.

It is a shame that neither of the two combatants advocate time aligning with digital crossovers. This is in my opinion the best place to start.

[CECAA850]

It is a shame that neither of the two combatants advocate time aligning with digital crossovers. This is in my opinion the best place to start.

Not much money to be made there.

[garyeanderson]

I like a little spirited debate. It is great that these forums are not over-moderated like some others and such a thing can go on for a while.

Do you like re-runs too. I have seen this program before and to me re-runs are boring. Getting back to the 2 inch horn thing again, I was going to follow Rudy’s and several others suggestion and try the P.Audio PH-4525/Goldwood 450PB as they are inexpensive, if they don’t work for my application not much harm done. As far as drivers, crossovers and the like, that’s where it gets confusing or expensive. I can’t afford to be wrong as it adds up fast. Dennis offered a group buy on the P.audio BM-D750 in the other topic by Rudy

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/134856.aspx?PageIndex=5

There didn’t seem to be any other interest, at least not in that topic.

Anyway things are on hold for now, I have moved my old KG 4’s onto the La Scala heavyweight clone’s and I’m running them on the B channel upside down with the Klipschorns on the A channel of the Pioneer A-80. The clones are on another Pioneer A-9 integrated amp. Not an Ideal test environment but its paid for so I guess its better than not playing around with the stuff.

[Rudy81]

Gary, been there, done all that. Yes, it can be expensive, confusing and overall a big pain in the rear. However, as I've said before, the journey is half the fun. Hang in there and keep looking into the issues. I think in the long run it may be worth the effort and money.

Money was a big issue for me, so that precluded me from investing in some of the better drivers and wood horns. I had already spent a tidy sum in the 1" wood horns, crossovers and various drivers. So, I researched things until I found a suitable solution. I really went crazy by going to an active system so I took my time and looked for good deals on used gear. I had to get new amps, electronic crossover, horns, drivers etc. Heck, I eventually ended up with new DIY speakers. But, the 'old' gear kept most of its value, so I was able to fund the new purchases by eventually selling all the other gear.

Don't give up. If you can find someone with 2" horns in your neck of the woods go have a listen. That will make the other decisions much easier.

[kg4guy]

I like a little spirited debate. It is great that these forums are not over-moderated like some others and such a thing can go on for a while.

Do you like re-runs too. I have seen this program before and to me re-runs are boring. Getting back to the 2 inch horn thing again, I was going to follow Rudys and several others suggestion and try the P.Audio PH-4525/Goldwood 450PB as they are inexpensive, if they dont work for my application not much harm done. As far as drivers, crossovers and the like, thats where it gets confusing or expensive. I cant afford to be wrong as it adds up fast. Dennis offered a group buy on the P.audio BM-D750 in the other topic by Rudy

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/134856.aspx?PageIndex=5

There didnt seem to be any other interest, at least not in that topic.

Anyway things are on hold for now, I have moved my old KG 4s onto the La Scala heavyweight clones and Im running them on the B channel upside down with the Klipschorns on the A channel of the Pioneer A-80. The clones are on another Pioneer A-9 integrated amp. Not an Ideal test environment but its paid for so I guess its better than not playing around with the stuff.

I used the Goldwood horns on a pair of my la scalas with a JBL 2445J driver and liked them.

[DrWho]

This is the

extreme-slope concept. Path length errors between drivers only generate fixed phase errors between between harmonics (complex component). Only if the path length is so extreme that the errors become extreme can you hear it. The example being the classic "tap dancer" phenomenon seen years ago with long straight low frequency horns in theaters where BOTH adjacent drivers where making the taping sounds at the same time. If the two drivers are making the same sound, as with all gentle slope networks, you will always hear everything twice. You hear it first from the driver closest to you. Your brain assumes it's an echo. It smears the sound and screws up the stereo image even if it's so short a time error that you can't resolve it a two separate sounds. Then there's the comb distortion issue. There is no comb interaction with a single source!

How bout a quick thought experiment....what happens when you feed a square wave into an extreme slope xover where there is a pathlength difference between drivers? The problem with your premise is that musical content does not consist of single sine waves. You have many frequencies happening at once and their relative phase information determines the timbre. The most classic example is that of a snare drum....strong lower mid fundamentals with lots of highs. Although subtle, it's amazing how the snare drum will tighten up as you switch time-alignment in...and it has nothing to do with the overlap region or being able to distinguish two distinct sounds. Why don't you just sit down and listen to the difference for a change instead of continuously misquoting irrelevant material? The tap dancing and the absolute phase audibility have absolutely nothing to do with it.

[DrWho]

It is a shame that neither of the two combatants advocate time aligning with digital crossovers. This is in my opinion the best place to start.

Not much money to be made there.

Agreed...and even if you want to ignore time-alignment, actives give you way more control over the voicing of the total system, not to mention the versatility if you want to make changes.

[msutton]

wow this post has really taken off since i was here last. i sat down last night and read though everyones comments and all though some differences on approach and personal opinions theres some good info here to be had so i appreicate everyones input. one thing that appears to be clear is that upgrading the klipsch 400/401 horn, either with a 1 inch horn, or 2 inch will make a considerable difference. thats good to know because its the upper part of the midrange that i dont like about my klipschorns. i just purchased a jolida 502 integrated amp along with a jolida j100 cd player and i hope the tube componets will be the start of a solid foundation for these speakers. as far as the 1inch to 2inch horns..it sounds like going to a 2inch would be slightly superior but that being said the money ramps up very quickly when you have to replace the horn and the k55 driver and i really have to decide exaclty how much im willing to spend to get the sound im looking for. since it hasnt arrived yet im going to be getting used to the jolida amp/cd sound and switching out the tubes to some NOS tubes that others have recommended to improve the sound of the jolida combo even further. another thing that is a factor for me is that i would like to stay with a passive crossover for the time being, either the alk or alk jr i believe. Ive read all the advantages of going with a active crossover, but want to keep things simple as possible right now. im still curious about the paudio/k69 combo as well..but from what i read the fq cutoff on the paudio horn is 400hz and dont you want the cutoff fz to be a half octave or so below 400hz where you crossover the khorn bassbin? i know there is already a dip in the 400hz range of khorns so would a horn with too high of a cutoff make things worse or not really noticable? also is it possible to use a passive crossover if you went with a 2way, or even 3way setup, using the paudio/k69? thanks for all the input you guys have provided