PrestonTom Posted December 30, 2010 Share Posted December 30, 2010 It sounds like some of you folks are not using a crossover prior to the amps. If the full bandwidth signal is going to each amp, then you are not getting the benefits of bi-amping. Many of the comments made above (about decreasing IM distortion etc) will not occur when the signal is split after the amplifiers. The benefits of bi-amping may be small and many may not hear the differences. The best chance you have of getting the (possible) benefits is by doing this correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinmi Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 It sounds like some of you folks are not using a crossover prior to the amps. If the full bandwidth signal is going to each amp, then you are not getting the benefits of bi-amping. Many of the comments made above (about decreasing IM distortion etc) will not occur when the signal is split after the amplifiers. The benefits of bi-amping may be small and many may not hear the differences. The best chance you have of getting the (possible) benefits is by doing this correctly. Is there a way to bi-amp correctly using passive components? Is there a way to use the amps for specific frequency ranges without having an active crossover in the mix? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 People have had good results with the Electro-Voice Dx38, the Electro-Voice DC-One, the Yamaha SP2060 I agree. There have also been one or two that have really liked the Ashley active (I don't know the model number but I think it's 4 in and 8 out) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 Is there a way to bi-amp correctly using passive components? Is there a way to use the amps for specific frequency ranges without having an active crossover in the mix? I think the keyword there is correctly. I'd speculate the answer is "no" since traditional biamping/triamping is going to have an active crossover after the preamp and each output of the active going to its own amp/driver. Then I think the water gets a little muddy... in that you could "biamp" by using an active and take one leg to (for example in my case) the Jubilee bass bin while taking the other leg to a 3-way Heresy which is parked on top of the Jubilee bass bin. This allowed me to "biamp" and dial things in while still using a passive to help filter part of the signal. I was going to attach a picture of when I put a Heresy on top of my bass bins but realized my avatar will suffice. During part of this avatar experiment, I used the MWM bass bins crossed at 80 and took the other leg to my LaScala (as a full 3-way) and did NOT hook up the K402 on top. Later, I bypassed the K400/77 and did hook up the K402 and was fully triamped. It worked great in all the configurations. I think however, that part of the gain was still seperating the signal with the active and only sending 80hz on up to the 3-way LaScala and everything below to the MWM. Then...to muddy the water even further..... [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 It sounds like some of you folks are not using a crossover prior to the amps. If the full bandwidth signal is going to each amp, then you are not getting the benefits of bi-amping. Many of the comments made above (about decreasing IM distortion etc) will not occur when the signal is split after the amplifiers. The benefits of bi-amping may be small and many may not hear the differences. The best chance you have of getting the (possible) benefits is by doing this correctly. Is there a way to bi-amp correctly using passive components? Is there a way to use the amps for specific frequency ranges without having an active crossover in the mix? Kevin, Sure, You have many options and BTW, I would not shy away from active crossovers since they can provide some other features as well (time alignment etc). Do a search on the following: bi-amping, Marchand, fools bi-amping Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 my not split the difference and use 10 1/2 watts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 my not split the difference and use 10 1/2 watts? my not indeed.... Regarding the original question on 8 watts... I had a 300B SET amp. I think it was about 8 watts. I plugged it into the biamped system (it covered about 500hz on up). I had a Crown K2 covering bass duties. I think the Crown as something like 400 watts? It did a fantastic job as long as the volume stayed within the confines of the 300B amp for trebel use. I think I had some extra headroom with the amp since it was not trying to reproduce anything below 500hz (which might be another benefit of biamping in the narrow sense). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinmi Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 You have many options and BTW, I would not shy away from active crossovers since they can provide some other features as well (time alignment etc). Do a search on the following: bi-amping, Marchand, fools bi-ampingTom, I am currently using a Behringer active crossover (on loan) and I'm experiencing more noise than with my passive setup, that's basically scaring me away from actives. Maybe I would have better luck with a different brand? The Behringer has way too many features for me. I just need to adjust the crossover points and slopes. I like to keep the signal path as clean as possible, but I do like the tuneability of the active setup. I think I hi-jacked this thread- sorry, my bad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 "Is there a way to bi-amp correctly using passive components? Is there a way to use the amps for specific frequency ranges without having an active crossover in the mix?" Of course, just build the crossover for line level impedances and voltage, and place ahead of the ampliers. Marchand sells LLPXOs from 6dB~24dB per octave. I put together a passive high-pass, active low-pass using the Marchand Kits for a forum member last year. It replaced an all active crossover, the passive high-pass removing all the opamp glare and cheap coupling-capacitor grain. http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/142054/1448008.aspx#1448008 If using a K55 type midrange that can handle the 6dB slope, a simple cap is all you need for the high-pass (this is exactly what the Dahlquist electronic crossover did), combined with an active low-pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy West Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 I was bi-amping Altec Lansing (12" woofer w/3000 Hz horn), two-way monitor speaker systems with the crossovers between the stereo pre-amp and (2) stereo power amps. My crossover was custom built by an EE engineer friend of mine with a 12 db/octave slope and adjustable output to all four power amps. For several years I used a 40w stereo power amp on the woofers and a 10w power amp on the horns. (Both solid state.) It worked fine. Later I moved the 40w stero power amp to the horns and used a 75w stereo power amp for the woofers. This also worked fine. Later still I acquired Altec Lansing Voice of the Theater speaker systems (A7/500's) and drove them conventionally with a 125w/channel power amplifier (no bi-amping). This also worked fine and reduced the cable clutter. These pro Altecs are very easy to drive, with a 102-104 db SPL from 1 watt input at 4 feet! Two days ago I ordered a pair of Klipsch RF-7 II's and I will run them with the same Marantz 250M power amp, using the built-in passive cross-overs (no bi-amping). The A7/500's are off to a friend with a big house! These were and still are two channel, stereo music (only) systems. Hope that helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 I am currently using a Behringer active crossover (on loan) and I'm experiencing more noise than with my passive setup, that's basically scaring me away from actives. Maybe I would have better luck with a different brand? I have a second EV Dx38 laying around that you'd be welcome to borrow for a while if you'd like. You could go so far as to triamp your Khorns with the EV on one side (it's 2 in, 4 out) and the Behringer on the other. Or, you could biamp both speakers if you have some kind of divider between your midrange/tweeter. Honest offer if you'd like it. I even have a box already to ship it in. I'll pay shipping to you and you pay it back. Lemme know if interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 theluggman was so bored with 8 watts he has expired and will no longer be posting in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinmi Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 theluggman was so bored with 8 watts he has expired and will no longer be posting in this thread.I knew we would run him out sooner or later! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinmi Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 I am currently using a Behringer active crossover (on loan) and I'm experiencing more noise than with my passive setup, that's basically scaring me away from actives. Maybe I would have better luck with a different brand? I have a second EV Dx38 laying around that you'd be welcome to borrow for a while if you'd like. You could go so far as to triamp your Khorns with the EV on one side (it's 2 in, 4 out) and the Behringer on the other. Or, you could biamp both speakers if you have some kind of divider between your midrange/tweeter. Honest offer if you'd like it. I even have a box already to ship it in. I'll pay shipping to you and you pay it back. Lemme know if interested. Thanks for the offer, Coytee, but I'm going to do some playing around with passives for a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theluggman Posted January 1, 2011 Author Share Posted January 1, 2011 theluggman was so bored with 8 watts he has expired and will no longer be posting in this thread.I knew we would run him out sooner or later! No not at all got busy on my end that's all. Now I am considering triamping considering 8 watts may not be enough for both mid and tweeter, sometimes we like to crank it, hence the Bryston which by the way doesn't even get warm with the Khorns. So lets reconsider my original question, will 8 watts be enough for the tweeter and may be 15 to25 for the mid? Thanks for thinking about me though LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 At the risk of repeating myself: "Do you need it to play louder than 128dB peak?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theluggman Posted January 1, 2011 Author Share Posted January 1, 2011 At the risk of repeating MYself what is a 16r tap? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinmi Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 So lets reconsider my original question, will 8 watts be enough for the tweeter and may be 15 to25 for the mid? Thanks for thinking about me though LOLI can run my Khorns with a1.8 watt set amp to acceptable levels.Bridged in mono I get 5.8 watts, and I can't come close to turning them all the way up. I think you will be suprised on how little power it takes to run the mid/highs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigrfish Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 "Thanks for your input, I am excited about this project but apprehensive on how much is my sickness gonna cost me!" Can't even talk about that until you have accumulated at least three pieces of gear that seemed such a great idea when you sprung for them but now have NO PLACE in your system...ex: WHAT am I going to do with a 30-band mono equalizer? Install a rear center channel, I reckon...but for that I'll have to have a black box, another channel of class A power, etc etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 There's a site somewhere that shows what portion of the overall power is needed by each driver, depending on the crossover frequency, but I haven't seen it for a while. In the meantime, here's some info from Crown regarding how much power is needed for various applications:http://www.crownaudio.com/amp_htm/amp_info/how_much_power.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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