Largest "small" speaker

[odysseyrevolver]

Read this detailed and well-written guide:

http://forum.blu-ray.com/subwoofers/95817-guide-bass-management-part-i.html

A pertinent passages reads:

"People have a psycological difficulty with the word SMALL. They have
spent good money on their front speakers and get insulted when the AVR
sets them to SMALL. Remember that this is not a personal insult against
you or your speakers. My Definitive Technology front speakers have 15"
built-in subwoofers with built-in 300 watt amplifiers. In addition to
those, I have 4 external subwoofers in my HT room. When I set the front
speakers to SMALL, the quality of the sound (both music and movies)
improves.



It is helpful to redefine the words SMALL and LARGE to:



LARGE = No bass mangement.

SMALL = Speakers are Bass Managed."

[Islander]

I have one question about this with regard to Home Theater for Movies. The LFE Channel carries frequencies upto 120hz. This means that the listener can tell the direction of the sound for the frequencies from 80hz to 120hz. What is the intended placement or the intended direction of these sounds on the LFE Channel?

There's no single point at which sound goes from "directional" to "non-directional". Sound in the very low frequencies is harder to localize, but you can still do it. In the case of a bedroom system, the mattress absorbs a lot of sound, so if the sub is off to one side, it will be really obvious where the bass is coming from. Unless you can put a bedroom sub near the TV or between the speakers, which is not always convenient, you'll need two subs in the bedroom. I tried a single sub near one of the bedside tables and within a few weeks, I went back to the shop and bought a second sub for the other side.

Two house moves later, the two subs are still in similar places in the bedroom. The side placement works because bass notes have several components: the lower pitch of the string itself, plus the higher pitch of the player's finger on the string, which gives the direction of the sound.

In the living room, you probably don't have a mattress to deal with, but the sub should be near or between the main speakers, since it's augmenting the sound coming from them and is intended to appear to come from them.

With music, the bass player will be on the stage with the other musicians, so he shouldn't sound like he's off to one side beyond the speakers. With movies, the action is on the screen, so that's where the sound should appear to come from. Some people will put a sub under or behind the sofa, but a sufficiently powerful sub located in front of you should have no problem shaking the room the way the director intended. It's a movie, folks, not a midway ride!

[Islander]

In the Large/Small debate, it seems that what's right is what sounds good to you, in your room, with your system. I tried the La Scalas as Large, as Small, with sub only and with Sub + Main ("Both" on the setup menu), and the best sound in my room with my gear is when the sub and the speakers are working together. The extra 8 square feet (4 sq ft per La Scala bass horn x 2) of horn mouth area really helps to move the air in the upper bass region.

Realistic bass sounds with minimal dips and peaks was what I was after and that's what I got.

[Rudy81]

A couple of weeks ago I drug out the Cornscala's and played with them and one of my subs along with a backup Sony receiver I had laying around. Much to my surprise when the Cornscala's were set to small and the crossover was dialed in on the sub, the difference was amazing. The small setting was much better and the RSW 15 became seamless with all music. The only reason I even tried this was I had never even played anything through this Sony that I was going through the manual trying to get a handle on the menu system that I just flipped them to small to make sure it was working and I'm glad I did because I would have never set the Corns to small. That said, my RF35's, RB5's or 61's set to small with the sub doing the same duty are going to sound like the Corns at all, so I'm of the camp stating that I would still buy the 7's because those with a well placed quality sub are wonderful too and that's my HT and audio set up in the man cave at the moment. JMO

Once you dial in a good sub with any speaker, you will not likely go back. I liked it so much, I made my DBBs 'three way', but not in the conventional sense. Each DBB has a dedicated RSW-15 crossed at 50Hz via my active crossover. The bass is seamless and powerful. I ended up here after messing around and adding one RSW-15 to my Khorns using the 'small' setting. One thing led to another and now the RSW-15s are 'part' of the DBB bass bins. [H]

I use my DIY TH subs for the LFE channel in movies.....works like a charm and rocks the entire house.

[Islander]

nce you dial in a good sub with any speaker, you will not likely go back.

You're right about that! I find lots of bass content in unexpected places, like ads on TV or radio program intros, as well as in music where it is expected. Without the sub, I simply wouldn't hear a significant part of my daily audio.

One audio magazine writer said that, much to his surprise, a good sub enabled him to hear subtle audio cues about the size of the performance space. It seemed to have some effect into the mid-range, sort of like how some people say supertweeters have audible effects in the treble, although the supertweeters' actual output is inaudible.

[Pete H]

nce you dial in a good sub with any speaker, you will not likely go back.

You're right about that! I find lots of bass content in unexpected places, like ads on TV or radio program intros, as well as in music where it is expected. Without the sub, I simply wouldn't hear a significant part of my daily audio.

One audio magazine writer said that, much to his surprise, a good sub enabled him to hear subtle audio cues about the size of the performance space. It seemed to have some effect into the mid-range, sort of like how some people say supertweeters have audible effects in the treble, although the supertweeters' actual output is inaudible.

I couldn't agree more. I called friends that were blown away with some of the set ups they had heard in my house and when I finally heard the sub integrated properly with the mains listening to music, I called all of them and said "you don't understand, that wasn't good, wait until you hear this" It's just one more rung on the ladder.

[Big Dog]

On other point, how many people are using receivers that provide automatic equalization for each speaker? I have a Denon 3311CI and the Audyssey system automatically balances each speaker for an exact flat sound. Does this automatic equalization, alleviate the need to use "double bass" to balance out the peaks and the valleys?

[Rich_Guy]

As I said before the best thing is to experiment with your system, systems vary and settings will vary, also personal taste varies.

But I recommend setting your speakers to small and let the sub do the deep bass, use your crossover settings for the speakers and this setting will vary by the speaker, room condition, etc.

THX recommendation is 80hz, but speakers with good bass will benefit with a lower setting, a good setting will blend flawlessly between the speakers. I would recommend starting at 80hz then trying lower settings and listen to see which you prefer and what sounds best with your system. With satelite speakers I would recommend the opposite starting with 80hz and increasing the settings if needed. My guess is that RF-7's would work best set between 40hz and 60hz but as I said experiment!

As for RF-7 vs RF-82 with a sub or without, better speakers just sound better, period.

[Big Dog]

Hey Rich Guy,

I have asked a few questions about "timbre matching" but not getting alot of feed back. I see you have the RF-5s for fronts and the RC-7 for centers. The specs say the fronts have a 1" tweeter and the center has a 1.75" tweeter. Are these a "timbre match". If so, how did you know?

[Guest davidness]

I have the speakers listed below crossed at 60 Hz along with 2 RSW subs and have never thought it to be a waste of cash...

I was also going to respond as RF7 as the largest 'small' speaker!

tdkamerica,

I have virtually the same setup. RF7, RC7, RB75, RSW12 in front, RSW15 in back, etc. You must have excellent taste, and an awesome audiophile ear!

I also run my RF7's as 'small'. I think it's nearly a perfect use of cash!

[Rich_Guy]

Hey Rich Guy,

I have asked a few questions about "timbre matching" but not getting alot of feed back. I see you have the RF-5s for fronts and the RC-7 for centers. The specs say the fronts have a 1" tweeter and the center has a 1.75" tweeter. Are these a "timbre match". If so, how did you know?

Yes, the RF-5 and RC-7 match flawlessly and these were the intended match by Klipsch. I think the RF-5's/RC-7 are probably one of the best matching sets.

If you stay with the model line of a speaker it will normally be a timbre match, also notice what is recommended. Using different makes of speakers or different model lines is where timbre matching usually becomes a problem.

[inder19]

Reading all these comments at work made me want to try and fix any issues I was having and try other settings. After playing around with different settings and subwoofer placements I have come to find an optimal setting (for now). First I found the best subwoofer placement which immediately made a difference. Then I used the ARCII to do the room correction. Then I ran Audyssey again...this time with a mic stand.....well not really its one of those rock band mic stands which I tweaked to work with the audyssey mic......long process. After this I listened to the same 3 songs at each setting for the fronts (Large)40HZ-80HZ(Small) in increments of 10hz. I then tried the same with the opening scene of Master and Commander.

My conclusion is setting ALL speakers to 80hz actually sounds the best. My issue in the first setup was sub placement. I only moved the subwoofers about a foot at the most and the change was drastic. The hallow mid-bass sound for music is gone and everything is sounding more like I expected. The fronts at 40hz sound great but the total sound doesn't blend well until about 70hz.

I am sure theres probably more that I can do, especially for the dual subwoofer setup, but I am satisfied for now but am always looking for tips .

[ken kaczmarz]

How about this question...when set to "small", is the RF-7 worth the significant extra cash over the RF82?

[Rich_Guy]

How about this question...when set to "small", is the RF-7 worth the significant extra cash over the RF82?

Setting the speaker to "small" has nothing to do with this. Think of the setting as just properly dialing in the system settings, setting it to "small" does not make a lesser speaker sound better or a better speaker sound worse.

As I said before it is better to think of it as this "small" = system is using a sub, "large" = system is not using a sub

[Zen Traveler]

I have both the RF-7s and it's bookshelf equivalent, the RB-75s and after hearing different opinions and running two RSW subs as well, tried the RB-75s up front. Fwiw, we have the RB-75/RC-7 in the bedroom and it sounds phenomenal but when I tried this set up in my main HT the fuller sound of the RF-7s became apparent....The difference was that the RB-75s sound like nice speakers, whereas when the lights are out the RF-7s (in the ht listed below) really enveloped you in sound like you are either in middle of the action or in prime seating for the concert.

[8] [~] [8] [Y]

[Big Dog]

The RC-7 and the RF-7 used the EXACT same tweeter.

Is there an exact match for the RC-64 II?

[Zen Traveler]

Is there an exact match for the RC-64 II?

Klipsch designed it specifically to go with the RF-7II.

http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/rc-64-ii-overview/

• Designed to perfectly complement the RF-7 II floorstander

[Rich_Guy]

The RC-7 and the RF-7 used the EXACT
same tweeter.

Is there an exact match for the RC-64 II?

Yes,
and the RC-7 and RF-5 use the exact same woofers. I think the RC-7
actually mates better with the RF-5's, but the RC-7 is excellent with
both the RF-5 and RF-7.

As tkdamerica said the RC-64ll is what Klipsch designed to be used
with the RF-7ll. I haven't heard these yet, but I think these are the most beautiful looking speakers Klipsch has made.

[inder19]

How about this question...when set to "small", is the RF-7 worth the significant extra cash over the RF82?

I would agree with the above post that the question is more of "are the RF-7II worth the extra cash over the RF-82II?" and to that I would say yes.

For myself the selling points over the RF-82II were, the color which i know doesnt matter, 1.75" vs 1" "tweeter", the capability of the RF-7IIs to go lower and I think thats where your concern is that if you set a frequency crossover at 60-80hz anyways is there a point to pay more for the RF-7IIs.. What I found is that in the same range the RF-7s sound better. Especially at louder volumes. Now as to worth the extra cash question....that I would say is personal opinion. For myself I was saving up for a while and was specifically looking at the RF-83 or RF-7. Also for the larger room size I felt going bigger was the way to go. Now if I was going to set this up in my family room or if my theatre was smaller I would be much more likely to consider the RF-82II. Also I will add that I do plan to get an amp eventually for the set up and I really like the idea of higher power handling of the RF-7IIs. For myself I think of it in almost the same sense a 200hp 0-60 in 7s car vs a 340hp car 0-60 5s. You can't push the higher powered car to its limits but within any range it will out perform the lower powered car. I understand there are other variables but this is just an example and as always worth the extra cash or not is going to depend on you and what else you need for your set up and how you will be using your setup.