USNRET Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 over in a thread in the garage sale section; thought I'd bring it here: USNRET: JL Sargent: davis419b: I did have the VRD ST-45 once but was not my cup of tea. I had spoke with Craig about his amps and he recomended the VRD monoblocks and I should have listened. I have an opportunity to take his advice so I am going to follow his words. If you took a saw and cut the ST-45 down the middle wouldn't you in affect have the VRD monos??? I have owned both and the answer is no, there is a different sound. In what way? I would expect that the monoblocs would have more authoritative bass response,....but I'm curious as to your thoughts. My repsonse: I had the VRDSt and rolled thru a few tubes so I do not believe that it is just a matter of having different tubes in the monos (there was just not this much difference is the different tubes I tried). The very first thing I noticed that I did not expect was that the gain required from my Peach was more on the mono blocks (unmeasured, just where I normally listened and NOT by much but some). This is not a sound difference but hey I noticed it right off the bat. The significant difference was the bass response mentioned above. As I have posted before, the reason I went away from the stereo amp was to find more bass (with the speakers I have). I did the solid state mono block route found that the matchup was lacking. I believe, without empirical knowledge, that my answer would be to have an active crossover / bi-amped, tube / SS system with the VRD on top. I did not have the bucks for that experiment so I went back to Craig, asked for forgiveness and got the his monos. I now have what I was missing. I still have not put an SPL meter to the room but I can say that with the Peach gains maxed and the volume knob at 9:00 I get significant chest bass. It is really not THAT loud but I get the kick! [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JL Sargent Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 So I'm guessing that the monoblocks may have more "iron" in the output transformers? I was under the impression that monoblocks were supposed to be quieter? I also thought that the ST-45s and the VRDs were in fact the same build just stereo vs. two monos? Anyway, I appreciate your thoughts on the subject. I've thought that my Belles would be really nice with VRDs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Both channels share a power supply in the stereo amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JL Sargent Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 I suspect the extra bass is helped by the additional 15 watts per channel. The ST-at 45w vs 60w monos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnatnoop Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 60wpc in ultralinear, 30 in triode, i prefer triode in almosst all situations. If you love the fade and decay of an instrument, triode, if you love the initial hit or impact, untralinear is what you want. I can count on the fingers of my three hands the times i've listened to VRD's in ultralinear mode, when you shabaaz you'll be in triode mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornman Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 " when you shabaaz you'll be in Triode mode." Right on Gnatnoop, I agree with you 100% on that.[Y] Triode - yes yes [Y] Cornman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USNRET Posted June 15, 2011 Author Share Posted June 15, 2011 60wpc in ultralinear, 30 in triode, i prefer triode in almosst all situations. If you love the fade and decay of an instrument, triode, if you love the initial hit or impact, untralinear is what you want. I can count on the fingers of my three hands the times i've listened to VRD's in ultralinear mode, when you shabaaz you'll be in triode mode. Same here, but not knowing any better I would speculate that the power supplies have more 'overhead' in reserve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 I appreciate the thoughts on this. I expected there to be some difference in the bass response, which can be a big deal depending on the speakers (especially if they are fully horn loaded) and the acoustic environment. VRD monobloc bass on fully horn loaded Klipsch is one helluva combo. Now on the UL V Triode, I have a bit of disagreement [] I actually prefer the VRDs in UL over triode. Not that the triode is poor or anything of the sort - it's prety good, actually - it's just that my vintage McIntosh does that "triode-ish sound/midrange bloom" more to my liking, and is what that system excels at, and the UL mode on VRDs is what that gear seems naturally good at. The VRD triode is "likeable", but the McIntosh is "get married to" when it comes to that kind of presentation, especially when fully loaded with Telefunken 12AX7. I might use triode more if I didn't have the Macs. Since I do, I never use triode on the VRDs.That said, I do understand why many DO like VRDs in triode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USNRET Posted June 15, 2011 Author Share Posted June 15, 2011 I will be getting a 5 day weekend coming up and since my Belles will be back from 'Cake' following his most superb veneer job I intend to put the combo thru it's paces with some family members over a couple of coolers full [<)] With the VRD St I did not hear a difference between the two modes and have not had enough time on the monos to vote. Just FYI, I hear zero difference between Hi Z and Low Z on the Peach pre-amp; Mark tells me that this is because of a very close match of impedance between the Peach and VRD. What da heck do I know? 35 years of jet engines and 10,000+ hours of flight time MIGHT influence the ears but I can still hear differences. Just think, someone NOT exposed to what I have been listening to should REALLY be able to hear the change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 So I'm guessing that the mono blocks may have more "iron" in the output transformers? I was under the impression that mono blocks were supposed to be quieter? I also thought that the ST-45s and the VRD's were in fact the same build just stereo vs. two monos? Anyway, I appreciate your thoughts on the subject. I've thought that my Belles would be really nice with VRD's. Nope the output transformer are identical. The circuit front to back tube wise is identical. Here are the only differences. The ST runs the KT-88's at 80 less volts on the plates and screens but at the same current.... The current version of the ST runs them at about 25 less volts. The ST has one very large power transformer that is actually capable of more current then two of the VRD mono power transformers. The power supply is dual railed and has basically the same amount of storage per channel so once the voltage and current leave the dual 5AR4 rectifiers the amp would be considered dual mono and every bit as capable as the Mono blocks. The Sonic difference is all in the voltage the KT-88's are run at. The current version has that factor lessened to minuscule. I could even make it none existent but I wanted the Stereo amp more output tube friendly in the tube type rolling department (EL34's, 6L6GC etc.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 60wpc in ultralinear, 30 in triode, i prefer triode in almosst all situations. If you love the fade and decay of an instrument, triode, if you love the initial hit or impact, untralinear is what you want. I can count on the fingers of my three hands the times i've listened to VRD's in ultralinear mode, when you shabaaz you'll be in triode mode. Do me a favor.....switch them to UL and leave them there for about a month....then switch back to Triode and report your opinion again. I'm real curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 I appreciate the thoughts on this. I expected there to be some difference in the bass response, which can be a big deal depending on the speakers (especially if they are fully horn loaded) and the acoustic environment. VRD monobloc bass on fully horn loaded Klipsch is one helluva combo. Now on the UL V Triode, I have a bit of disagreement I actually prefer the VRDs in UL over triode. Not that the triode is poor or anything of the sort - it's prety good, actually - it's just that my vintage McIntosh does that "triode-ish sound/midrange bloom" more to my liking, and is what that system excels at, and the UL mode on VRDs is what that gear seems naturally good at. The VRD triode is "likeable", but the McIntosh is "get married to" when it comes to that kind of presentation, especially when fully loaded with Telefunken 12AX7. I might use triode more if I didn't have the Macs. Since I do, I never use triode on the VRDs.That said, I do understand why many DO like VRDs in triode. Another factor would be speakers used... you have all Cornwalls do you not? or am I having a brain fart? If so Cornwall's IMHO have a much more boomy bass then Khorn's or Lascala/Bells and triode could magnify that trait with it's softer bottom and top end response..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JL Sargent Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Hey Craig, thanks so much for the explanation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Another factor would be speakers used... you have all Cornwalls do you not? or am I having a brain fart? If so Cornwall's IMHO have a much more boomy bass then Khorn's or Lascala/Bells and triode could magnify that trait with it's softer bottom and top end response..... You are correct that I do use the VRDs on Cornwalls. I do also have a set of Belle Klipsch, but those are in the other room on the Mac system. I don't think my "issue" with the VRDs in triode on my Cornwalls is a bass issue - I think it's because the Cornwalls place too much midrange in the woofer. In UL, the Cornwalls present themselves much more consistently and cohererently through the midrange. I SHOULD swap the system cores (VRD/Peach and McIntosh amps/pre), but the theater room needs the HT passthrough - and bringing the vintage Mac into that room messes up the HT rig. Not to mention the painindeazz of swapping speaker leads, as I ran the cables in the Mac room under the carpet to allow for an entryway between the gear and speakers (might fashion adapters of some kind). I still need and want to do this sometime....it's on my list of audio "to do's" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USNRET Posted June 17, 2011 Author Share Posted June 17, 2011 Good science or not, I plan to have my entire system up and running the 4th, have several people over that have never heard my system (or any Klipsch / tube gear) in any configuration and give the UL / T switch a little work out. I am afraid the double blind with have to come from a barley / hops mixture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 When you get the system broke in a little leave the switches in each position for a few weeks each. Give them some time to appreciate the various nuances. I do this with tube rolling too....it takes a sample trip 'round the collection to fully appreciate the changes, and you'll likely find give and take between the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USNRET Posted June 17, 2011 Author Share Posted June 17, 2011 I will have maybe 200 hours on the VRD tubes when the Belles come back. All the other components, including the xovers and drivers are well past 'break-in'. Gosh DARN IT, just as I was typing and having the system warm up for a listening session we took a momentary black out. Very short, some clocks did the flashing 1200 and some did not, the DTV receivers and PC took a dump. I heard the speakers do the 'snap' that occurs when the Peach comes on line (Mark, I do not like that soft start). Now I have a consistent noise in a preamp tube P** ME OFF; so much for those Ben Franklins. Can someone recommend a poor man's Battery Back Up (UPS) that can do a fill in in this scenario? It would need to fill in power to the Peach, (2) VRDs, Tercel and Jolida CD? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 I use an APC Smart UPS 1500. Not a poor man's backup but we have so many blackouts in my neighborhood I finally took drastic action. I managed to get a couple for around $350 each via the APC factory outlet. You just have to watch for them to come up on sale. There is the ongoing cost of replacing the batteries every 3 years or so. Considering your setup I would say your equipment deserves a decent battery backup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USNRET Posted June 17, 2011 Author Share Posted June 17, 2011 I use an APC Smart UPS 1500. Not a poor man's backup but we have so many blackouts in my neighborhood I finally took drastic action. I managed to get a couple for around $350 each via the APC factory outlet. You just have to watch for them to come up on sale. There is the ongoing cost of replacing the batteries every 3 years or so. Considering your setup I would say your equipment deserves a decent battery backup. You got a model number for me? Someone smarter than me be able to calculate the specs I need? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Good science or not, I plan to have my entire system up and running the 4th, have several people over that have never heard my system (or any Klipsch / tube gear) in any configuration and give the UL / T switch a little work out. I am afraid the double blind with have to come from a barley / hops mixture. I have zero faith in double blind tests or any tests that is instantaneous. In this instance the actual SPL will change just enough to render the test inconclusive. The actual level of the music changes slightly when switching. Besides that to me it just take longer then brief listening sessions to get a handle on what you're hearing and what your not hearing. You also have a mental state of mind thing that can change the results from one day to the next. In my experience the only truth in those types of tests is that the two pieces of gear under test sound different then each other. Now the Barley and Hops test that is 100% reliable[Y] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.