MikeFord Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 I'm a long time Klipsch fan, and tonight made a last minute bid on a pair of Heresy HBR on ebay with kicked in woofers (movers according to seller). K77, K55V, K22, with a type E crossover. Cabinets are a bit rough, but looks like mostly cosmetic damage. One woofer I think I can repair the 2" tear along the surround, right at the junction of the wiggly part, but the other is torn away a couple inches around the voicecoil and all the way to the surround and a few inches back. Initially I'd just like to get them working as original. Long term, I expect I have been biten by the horn affliction, and will spend the rest of my days fiddling with horns. I like what a subwoofer can do when crossed electronically to mains between 80 and 120 hz, so I am thinking about replacement woofers that would be optimized for 70 hz and up. Goal would be to bump up the efficiency a bit, but also sound quality issues are important. Any suggestions, anybody try this? I'm in SoCal not far from Disneyland, so a local or semi local inexpensive source of a spare K22 or two would be good too. Thanks, looks like a great forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironsave Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Welcome to The Forum! The Heresy I speakers start rolling off around 60hz. I use mine with a sub; and have it crossed at 60hz. Seamless transition (pretty good sub) all the way down to the mid 20hz region...... I have tried crossing at 60, 70, 80, and 100hz. 60 is by far the best to my ears. (they are set to "small" on my receiver; so the receiver cuts anything below 60hz to them) My opinion is your best bet is to get the woofers replaced with OEM units; or the ones Bob Crites sells; if you can afford them (~$200). These speakers are very efficient already. (94-95db). If you are looking for improvent to SQ; replace the caps in the Xover. (Sonicaps go for around $40-$50 from Mr. Crites). If you are looking to increase bass output; sealing the back panels with foam strips will get a tighter seal and improve bass response some. There are many, many other improvements the DIY person can make. (Ask Moray James and Groomlakearea51! [] ). Good Luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 As Iron sez.... Look at: http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/103886.aspx for the tech and data on the Heresy. Look at: http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/109693.aspx for restoration, sealing, re-veneering, etc. Have fun!! [H] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFord Posted July 28, 2011 Author Share Posted July 28, 2011 I've read the first link, second one is going to take some time. Having fun is the easy part, all I have to do is hide them from my wife. I was hoping to hit the ground running, have some replacement woofer ordered before I pick the speakers up, but I think I need to give some thought to the direction I want to take. Its a bit disappointing that nobody recones the originals. Thanks, more after I have the speakers in my hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zora Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Places like Orange County Speakers (local to you) or Simply Speakers (not local) can't recone them? That would be the easiest choice. I would second the advice on the Crites drivers, I've had nothing but good luck with Bob's stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhoak Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 According to: http://www.parts-express.com/speakerrepaircenter/index.cfm it'll cost $62 plus shipping each to recone a pair of Klipsch K-22 woofers. You're looking at around $150 to $160 (maybe more) to get them reconed. They do turn up on eBay pretty often but you're rolling the dice. I've bought good ones and I've bought total crap. If it were me and I'd just buy a pair of BEC's CW1228s for $200 delivered and be done with it. http://www.critesspeakers.com/prices-other_stuff.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFord Posted July 29, 2011 Author Share Posted July 29, 2011 Orange county is lucky to have a number of good speaker repair shops, but quality issues and price are not making reconing very attractive options with the K-22. Fixing rotted foam is the bread and butter of speaker repair shops, and the Klipsch are long lasting paper, new K-22 are not expensive, so we end up with the chicken and egg, few are reconed, low volume drives up cost and reduces quality, which further reduces volume. OTOH with shops local I can drive over hand them the driver, and inspect it when its done, and maybe even get a deal as a local. I think recone is currently my third choice behind find a good original, and find a good upgrade. Speakers are now sitting on a table in my garage, wow, not light weight and barely fit in my trunk, but still smaller than I imagined. Tomorrow morning I hope to do some quick testing, make sure the rest of the diaphragms are in good shape etc, then attempt some patience to see what turns up in woofers. I'm surprised that some of the quality cast frame 12" drivers haven't been tried, Altec and JBL. *** BEC drivers are in the running, but I usually have a strong urge to try something different with upgrades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 The Heresy I speakers start rolling off around 60hz. No, they start rolling off a bit above 100 Hz and are about 3db down by 60 Hz. These speakers are very efficient already. (94-95db). True, by today's standards. Options I would consider: See if Orange County Speakers can recone--unless you are lucky, it will be with generic recone parts, not OEM. See if you can find good replacemets on eBay, etc.--just be aware you can run into a variety of problems Get Bob Crites' replacements--no brainer if you are willing to spend the money Find new equivalents--not all that hard as there was nothing particularly special about the woofers Klipsch used, just pay attention to sensitivity. Price might be a bit less than BC's depending on what you choose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 I'm surprised that some of the quality cast frame 12" drivers haven't been tried, Altec and JBL. EV cast frame woofers were used in the late 60s. Cast frame or stamped frame doesn't determine how well the woofer works. Klipsch used woofers from a lot of companies for the Heresy over the years. The decision at any point in time appears to have been driven primarily by availability and price. Despite the current fixation on Thiele Small paramenters by some folks, they all sound pretty much the same. The only technical improvements over the years seem to have been increased Xmax so you can play louder down low before reaching limits, and increased power handling capacity so you can play louder period. IMHO the best Heresy woofers are those based on the EV SP12B but I really cannot tell the difference in sound from the others. *** BEC drivers are in the running, but I usually have a strong urge to try something different with upgrades. And Bob has already done the homework. Yeah, but in this case you are unlikely to do better. The limiting factor on the low end is the size of the box, not the woofer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Just a quick comment on reconing. Ideally, it is done with OEM parts. The problem with reconing Heresy woofers is that OEM parts are no longer available for many of them, like the SP12B. That doesn't mean they cannot be reconed. It just means that it will have to with generic parts. And if an appropriate generic voice coil is not available, it may mean having a voice coil custom wound. It can be done. It is just a question of how much you are willing to spend and if you are willing to use non-OEM parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 If you need to send out the current woofers for repair, you'll be miles ahead by getting new ones from Bob. That's a no brainer. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironsave Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 The Heresy I speakers start rolling off around 60hz. No, they start rolling off a bit above 100 Hz and are about 3db down by 60 Hz. Technically you are correct. You obviously understand that I meant they start seriously dropping off below 60hz. My point was and is still valid. [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 You obviously understand that I meant they start seriously dropping off below 60hz. No.That is not what you said. Why would I think you meant other than what you said? My point was and is still valid. The way you restated it, perhaps more so in a vague way. The way you originally stated it, no. In any case, Heresys require a subwoofer for many applications no matter what you do to them. And if you need a subwoofer, there is not much of a reason to chase a little extra base response out of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFord Posted July 29, 2011 Author Share Posted July 29, 2011 I've been dancing around the Klipsch pond for about 30 years, and in a moment of pure late night ebay fever jumped in by buying this pair of damaged woofer Heresy speakers. I had no idea what they were like, just which horns were used, and that they were old Klipsch. I've got a lot more to learn, but as I understand it now these were always intended for use with some other system suppling the "real" bass, center channel voice, that sort of thing. I'm 100% OK with that, I like using a subwoofer, and find a system can see a lot of overal improvement when all the bass, and the large associated cone movement and power comsumption are handled separately from the mid bass and vocal range. I've gotten two emails so far from people offering good used pairs of early woofers for $100 or less shipped, just waiting on a few more details and a price from Klipsch on a pair of new replacements before pulling the trigger. When it comes to drivers, lets just say I am well accquainted with SPL, SQ, and $$$. BTW where do people usually post something like a Hello I'm new, did that, doing this, type post? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 ...where do people usually post something like a Hello I'm new, did that, doing this, type post? You just did. Welcome aboard. The earliest Heresys were intended for use with a Klipschorn. Later models, were intended to stand alone. They had sufficient bass to reproduce most music of the day just fine, although not as well as the larger Heritgae models. The obsession we have with a** kicking base today is a relatively new phenomenon. FWIW best center for a Heresy system is another Heresy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidF Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 I've been dancing around the Klipsch pond for about 30 years, and in a moment of pure late night ebay fever jumped in by buying this pair of damaged woofer Heresy speakers. I had no idea what they were like, just which horns were used, and that they were old Klipsch. I've got a lot more to learn, but as I understand it now these were always intended for use with some other system suppling the "real" bass, center channel voice, that sort of thing. I'm 100% OK with that, I like using a subwoofer, and find a system can see a lot of overal improvement when all the bass, and the large associated cone movement and power comsumption are handled separately from the mid bass and vocal range. I've gotten two emails so far from people offering good used pairs of early woofers for $100 or less shipped, just waiting on a few more details and a price from Klipsch on a pair of new replacements before pulling the trigger. When it comes to drivers, lets just say I am well accquainted with SPL, SQ, and $$$. BTW where do people usually post something like a Hello I'm new, did that, doing this, type post? The advantage with going with the orignal woofers is that they were used to voice the speakers. Who knows how close a recone today might match up with the original's specs. That said the Heresy has had a long life span and there was certainly a lot of variation in driver runs over the years. If you want to experiment with different drivers then again you are faced with different specs and response issues. Sensitivity is sort of a relative thing when using subs since the sensitivity of the system is that of the subs. Might be a help if you are running low watt amps for the mains but otherwise not much to gain in trying to increase sensitivity. My thoughts are to try to get a pair of the original 22-E or, alternatively, give Bill C a call and talk with him about how his replacements might match up with the originals in terms of response and imedance curves. Have fun. PS, how do the cabinets look? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 Who knows how close a recone today might match up with the original's specs. As long as you use a paper cone and maintain efficiency I think you would never be able to tell the difference. Klipsch used woofers from a number of manufacturers in the Heresy over they years, including EV, CTS, Eminence, Rola and others. They all sound the same. The timbre of the speaker is much more a factor of the tweeter and squawker, and the crossover frequency to the woofer, than the woofer.Likewise, I doubt impedance curves make an audible difference. Years ago I ran curves on several of the woofers used in the Heresy over the years. There were vast differences, yet they all sound pretty much the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidF Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Therefore a Forte should sound just like a Hersey II? Mine don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheric Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Who knows how close a recone today might match up with the original's specs. As long as you use a paper cone and maintain efficiency I think you would never be able to tell the difference. Klipsch used woofers from a number of manufacturers in the Heresy over they years, including EV, CTS, Eminence, Rola and others. They all sound the same. The timbre of the speaker is much more a factor of the tweeter and squawker, and the crossover frequency to the woofer, than the woofer.Likewise, I doubt impedance curves make an audible difference. Years ago I ran curves on several of the woofers used in the Heresy over the years. There were vast differences, yet they all sound pretty much the same. Totally agreed with Malcolm! I have tried this, personally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheric Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Therefore a Forte should sound just like a Hersey II? Mine don't. If you called Klipsch support, they would recommend a K28 as a replacement woofer for your Forte. At least, I was told by one of the techs once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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