can someone please explain to me the technical reasons why...

[Schu]

great discussion so far... I am here to learn for sure.

having done the A-AB-B tests, I can say that I can hear, VERY slightly, more clarity with A only with distinct separation between the right and left sides, with AB the sound is more like a full wall of sound, with a nice forward soundstage. I also think that one set up works well for different types of music, jazz and acoustic music sounds great in two channel and large sound music is great with all four firing.

so then, it must be worthless for me to add another set of cornwalls??? i wanted to replace the heresys with a second set of cw's

[mark1101]

It sounds like you can hear the difference but you prefer the larger soundfield to the stereo imaging............nothing wrong with that. I would definitely replace heresys with cornwalls. I think most would agree corns are the better sounding of the two if you can deal with the size.

Cal, that is one nice building..........you need bigger speakers for that place!! MCM-Grand on the floor will solve your problems!!

[dtel]

A little better view lkg to front door from mez. For scale, that roll up door is 10' high and 10' wide. The table by the door on the right is 6 foot square.

I would love a space like that to work in. [Y] I remember seeing pic of if before but could not remember who's it was.

[MikeFord]

When the listening environment isn't too good, then more speakers seem to work. Think about a car, which almost always has front and rear speakers, and in general nobody turns the rear speakers off. My taste is a slight bias to the front, which seems to be enough for my ears think its just louder or something, dunno but thats what sounds best to me.

At home I can't say that I have ever preferred some "created" mix of front and rear for critical listening, or anything but movies.

In a car or a shop I think the sort of high quality immersive experience possible in really good 2ch system may be too much of a distraction, too much competition for your attention.

[Groomlakearea51]

I have done this since 1971, and it took a while and experimentation to get it right. When I discovered the internet about 10 years ago, I too "suffered" from negative comments from many folks on various forums. "Can't be done", "Will sound bad", yadee, yadee, ad nauseum. But, regardless of the nay-sayers, it works if done right, and the difference can be quite amazing.

There were, however, a couple of things that I did learn.

First, in effect what you are doing is creating a horizontal "line" stage, or simply put, using a pair as the "center". No problem, except that as long as the speakers are being run as an A/B pair, you cannot adjust or compensate for volume levels, or use the ability to widen, narrow, deepen or make shallow the sound field you want to create. Thats what the nay sayers are actually complaining about. Without that ability, the "array" simply will not sound better than the main left and right alone, or the centers alone. More on that further. as that's really the key.

Second (and it's a "heresy"... LOL) is that in the array you are creating, the "centers" need to be up off the ground and at about the same height as the midrange and tweeter of the primary pair. Try temporarily putting them up on a couple of el-cheapo (make them yourself...) speaker stands, about 24" tall. That will clear up alot of the issues with the upper mids and highs.

Third, that wall inset in the picture is a giant "bass trap".... As an experiment, at about 85dB SPL (moderate but low enough to hear the distortion, go stand in that area. I would suspect that the bass you do hear is "muddy", and the mids seem "mushy". Get a couple of large thick blankets and hang them on the wall about 1' down from the ceiling, across the wall. You should be pleasantly surprised at the improvement. Start looking for some nice WAF approved thick wall hangings, or decorative acoustic foam absorption/diffusion panels. Parts-express has them.

Lastly, and I hate to say this because it's the costly part of the project, the way to really make it work is to have a second (preferably identical, or at the least a similar model from the same manufacturer) amplifier for the center pair. The second amp is what makes it work properly. You use the primary amp for the main left right speakers and set the general volume level you want. Then.... dial in the second amp with the Heresy's to a volume level that you desire for the sound stage effect that you want. As an example, for vocals, you can set amp #2 to mono, etc.

I use this type of system in the living room (3 pairs of Cornwalls), the master bedroom (Klipschorns and LaScalas), and then..... there's the "Wall of Voodoo" man cave (Klipschorns, Heresy "eXtremes" on top of the K'horns) and Belles as the "centers. Along that wall, there is no equipment; that's on the back wall. And about a 6' center section of the 17' "long" wall is treated with acoustic foam panels to kill the "bad" bass that collects in that area.

It works.... really well, and everyone who has been here (and that's alot of folks from the Klipsch forum, including a former Klipsch employee) can attest to the sound quality and the ability to manipulate the sound stage imaging that I want for any particular music genre.

That being said, you can "get away" with one amp if it's a good programmable AVR, because you can set the center pair with the receiver's programmable area at -3dB. -6dB, etc. to get the effect you want at a standard volume level. That's what I do in the living room and master bedroom as those areas are for DTV, videos on occasion, etc. No need to run multiple amps if 90% of what's being heard is..... the "Soap Channel" or the news, etc.

[H]

[Cal Blacksmith]

Mark, you want to loan me the speakers in your Av? I would love to give it a try!

Dtel, yes it is nice to have the room. All it took was

1 have the room on the property

and more importantly

2 have a wonderful wife who says to refinance the house and just build it. She is one in a million!

[Schu]

I have done this since 1971, and it took a while and experimentation to get it right. When I discovered the internet about 10 years ago, I too "suffered" from negative comments from many folks on various forums. "Can't be done", "Will sound bad", yadee, yadee, ad nauseum. But, regardless of the nay-sayers, it works if done right, and the difference can be quite amazing.

There were, however, a couple of things that I did learn.

First, in effect what you are doing is creating a horizontal "line" stage, or simply put, using a pair as the "center". No problem, except that as long as the speakers are being run as an A/B pair, you cannot adjust or compensate for volume levels, or use the ability to widen, narrow, deepen or make shallow the sound field you want to create. Thats what the nay sayers are actually complaining about. Without that ability, the "array" simply will not sound better than the main left and right alone, or the centers alone. More on that further. as that's really the key.

Second (and it's a "heresy"... LOL) is that in the array you are creating, the "centers" need to be up off the ground and at about the same height as the midrange and tweeter of the primary pair. Try temporarily putting them up on a couple of el-cheapo (make them yourself...) speaker stands, about 24" tall. That will clear up alot of the issues with the upper mids and highs.

Third, that wall inset in the picture is a giant "bass trap".... As an experiment, at about 85dB SPL (moderate but low enough to hear the distortion, go stand in that area. I would suspect that the bass you do hear is "muddy", and the mids seem "mushy". Get a couple of large thick blankets and hang them on the wall about 1' down from the ceiling, across the wall. You should be pleasantly surprised at the improvement. Start looking for some nice WAF approved thick wall hangings, or decorative acoustic foam absorption/diffusion panels. Parts-express has them.

Lastly, and I hate to say this because it's the costly part of the project, the way to really make it work is to have a second (preferably identical, or at the least a similar model from the same manufacturer) amplifier for the center pair. The second amp is what makes it work properly. You use the primary amp for the main left right speakers and set the general volume level you want. Then.... dial in the second amp with the Heresy's to a volume level that you desire for the sound stage effect that you want. As an example, for vocals, you can set amp #2 to mono, etc.

I use this type of system in the living room (3 pairs of Cornwalls), the master bedroom (Klipschorns and LaScalas), and then..... there's the "Wall of Voodoo" man cave (Klipschorns, Heresy "eXtremes" on top of the K'horns) and Belles as the "centers. Along that wall, there is no equipment; that's on the back wall. And about a 6' center section of the 17' "long" wall is treated with acoustic foam panels to kill the "bad" bass that collects in that area.

It works.... really well, and everyone who has been here (and that's alot of folks from the Klipsch forum, including a former Klipsch employee) can attest to the sound quality and the ability to manipulate the sound stage imaging that I want for any particular music genre.

That being said, you can "get away" with one amp if it's a good programmable AVR, because you can set the center pair with the receiver's programmable area at -3dB. -6dB, etc. to get the effect you want at a standard volume level. That's what I do in the living room and master bedroom as those areas are for DTV, videos on occasion, etc. No need to run multiple amps if 90% of what's being heard is..... the "Soap Channel" or the news, etc.

Awesome... thanks.

I sold off my KLF's that were running as a back pair in surround this weekend, so now I am down to heresy and CW. I really want to find a second pair of CW' for second fronts as you are describing and use or sell those mint condition heresys, but they are so nice to look at