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Rayman

subwoofer crossover hz / L.F.E. signals

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Brunt LFE is mixed at 20-120 Hz so the sub itself when watching a movie should never be crossed over under 120 Hz or you could be losing bass content in the movie. But when using bass management in your avr by setting speakers to small, what he’s saying is to not crossover those speakers that are set too small to over the 60 Hz range. Or you increase the odds of adding content to your sub that will make it more localizable. (Wow that’s actually a word lol)

LOL...I'm not sure I'm following either[:P]

What I think your saying is that you want your sub playing all LFE content available and that said content goes up to 120hz. I'm sorta cloudy on what setting your speakers to big or small actually does. I don't agree with some people's advice to set all your speakers to 80hz but that may be a seperate subject. My on screen display and owners manual does not do a good job of explaining the "small" and "large" settings.

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Brunt LFE is mixed at 20-120 Hz so the sub itself when watching a movie should never be crossed over under 120 Hz or you could be losing bass content in the movie. But when using bass management in your avr by setting speakers to small, what he’s saying is to not crossover those speakers that are set too small to over the 60 Hz range. Or you increase the odds of adding content to your sub that will make it more localizable. (Wow that’s actually a word lol)

LOL...I'm not sure I'm following eitherStick out tongue

What I think your saying is that you want your sub playing all LFE content available and that said content goes up to 120hz. I'm sorta cloudy on what setting your speakers to big or small actually does. I don't agree with some people's advice to set all your speakers to 80hz but that may be a seperate subject. My on screen display and owners manual does not do a good job of explaining the "small" and "large" settings.

I'll give it a try but most likely not do as well as the posts above.

The LFE track goes from 10Hz or so, up to 120 Hz, so you don't want to set the subs low pass filter below 120 Hz as you may loose some LFE content. For example, if you set the subs filter to 100 Hz, you will loose content from 100 to 120 Hz. You want to turn the filter on the sub to it's highest setting or disable it completely.

The crossover point for your speakers is a totally different discussion. When you set your speakers to "small" you can choose the high pass filter setting. Most start with 80Hz. That means (roughly) everything above 80 Hz goes to your speakers and (roughly) everything below 80 Hz goes to the sub. Most processors combine the LFE signal with everything below the crossover point (of the speakers) and send it all to the sub.

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Brunt LFE is mixed at 20-120 Hz so the sub itself when watching a movie should never be crossed over under 120 Hz or you could be losing bass content in the movie. But when using bass management in your avr by setting speakers to small, what he’s saying is to not crossover those speakers that are set too small to over the 60 Hz range. Or you increase the odds of adding content to your sub that will make it more localizable. (Wow that’s actually a word lol)

LOL...I'm not sure I'm following eitherStick out tongue

What I think your saying is that you want your sub playing all LFE content available and that said content goes up to 120hz. I'm sorta cloudy on what setting your speakers to big or small actually does. I don't agree with some people's advice to set all your speakers to 80hz but that may be a seperate subject. My on screen display and owners manual does not do a good job of explaining the "small" and "large" settings.

On the first part you are correct about my point that the

lfe channels content goes up to 120 Hz. Lowering your subs crossover below 120

Hz would lose lfe content. On the large vs small I have spent so many hours

learning on this topic and just when I thought I understood it all I found that

to be untrue. Here’s the most basic way it works: if you leave all your

speakers set to large all that means is you’re not changing anything, and

everything is going to play just how the movies audio engineers mixed it to

play. We could call this a factory audio setting I guess. If you change any

speakers to small you are changing the factory setting to what audio information

goes to what speakers. So if you set your speakers to small and cross them over

at 80 Hz you’re rerouting the audio information below 80 Hz to the subs channel

(lfe). The thing to remember is that almost all movie theaters crossover there

surround and rear speakers to 80Hz (that’s a fact!). Audio engineers that do the

audio mixing on movies know this so they don’t put much if any content below 80

Hz to the surrounds anyways (what would be the point). Having a seamless audio

mix means no overlapping frequencies so if you looked at a graph and ran just the

surrounds you’re not going to see any low frequencies coming out of them

anyways. So setting them to small at 80 Hz does very little if anything. If you

have super small surrounds and want to protect them by setting them to 120 Hz

that would probably change it a little but it would be more for peace of mind. A

big reason that they say to set your fronts to 80 Hz is so you don’t have phase

issues with your subs. As I said before speakers use analog crossover

networks, and the avr and a lot of subs use digital crossover processing. Digital

and analog processing speed is different so that can mean the timing/phase can

be different. Depends on the sub though my old klipsch subs integrated fine. But

my svs uses a digital processor so it took some tinkering. Having a bass eq

like the sms-1 makes it way easier to get a smooth bass response having the 3

subs and setting the mains to large. In your set up Jason I would run it all

large unless you’re having bass issues then you might try setting your mains

and center to 50 Hz. But if you like your bass and don’t have phase issues I would

go large.

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It may seem backwards but because of how audio engineers mix

movies you’re not really changing that much using the small setting for most of

the channels when using 80hz or lower (other than the fronts and maybe a tiny

bit for the center). They know better that anyone how things are set up in

movie theaters and ht. And they mix the audio tracks accordingly. It wouldn’t make

any sense to put a bunch of 20 Hz content to speakers they know wouldn’t have

ANY chance of reproducing it (even in there studios). So all the low content gets

sent to the lfe channel before we even get it to are blu ray players.

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Here's something confusing:

On my Pioneer's on screen setup, I can set the speakers to large or small, but with either setting, I can still control the crossover function. I assume this is so that if I have the fronts set to large but the surrounds set to small it will set a crossover on any channel set to small right ?

Ok so on the flipside, if I set all speakers to small, and the crossover (bass management) to 50hz, will the receiver still send LFE discrete stuff to the sub ABOVE 50hz ? or would that now get filtered off ?

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The LFE track goes from 10Hz or so, up to 120 Hz, so you don't want to set the subs low pass filter below 120 Hz as you may loose some LFE content. For example, if you set the subs filter to 100 Hz, you will loose content from 100 to 120 Hz. You want to turn the filter on the sub to it's highest setting or disable it completely.

The crossover point for your speakers is a totally different discussion. When you set your speakers to "small" you can choose the high pass filter setting. Most start with 80Hz. That means (roughly) everything above 80 Hz goes to your speakers and (roughly) everything below 80 Hz goes to the sub. Most processors combine the LFE signal with everything below the crossover point (of the speakers) and send it all to the sub.

THIS makes sense to me. End of line.

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So, if LFE content goes from 10-120hz, and your speakers are also playing everythingfrom 60 or 80 and up, why is it called LFE? If I cross my mains over at 60hz, the center at 60 or 70hz and the surrounds at 70hz, I was under the impression the sub is playing everything below 70hz. You're saying there's a separate stream of info playing from 10-120hz? Nevermind the subs crossover, I always open that all the way up and let the AVR send what I want to the sub...which from what I'm reading is all frequencies from 10hz-120hz?

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120hz, is awful high for sub crossover, IMHO. Your mains are probally good to at least 80hz.

+1. Maybe even 60 HZ. Decide if you prefer the small or large setting:

I think the LFE is a seperate audio track for 5.1 encoded audio; but for (2 channel; non encoded) speakers and sub:

Small setting (speakers do NOT play below the sub crossover frequency) or large (speakers play as low as they can go; and sub plays from crossover point to as low as it can go).......

There are advantages and possible disadvantages to both settings; but depends on your system power; and speaker ratings and even room type and placement may affect how each setting sounds.

Good Luck.

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So, if LFE content goes from 10-120hz, and your speakers are also playing everythingfrom 60 or 80 and up, why is it called LFE? If I cross my mains over at 60hz, the center at 60 or 70hz and the surrounds at 70hz, I was under the impression the sub is playing everything below 70hz. You're saying there's a separate stream of info playing from 10-120hz? Nevermind the subs crossover, I always open that all the way up and let the AVR send what I want to the sub...which from what I'm reading is all frequencies from 10hz-120hz?

I think when you are playing music (2 channel) or anything not 5.1 encoded; only the crossover settings apply.

When playing 5.1 encoded (movie) tracks; the LFE channel is separate. (I believe). If I am mistaken on this; please correct it for me. (Break it down in a simplified manner please).

Brunt; I am with you; I let my sub do 60 hz and down.......

I may experimant more with the LFE settings; but honestly; my movies sound great and my music even better; so.....

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So, if LFE content goes from 10-120hz, and your speakers are also playing everythingfrom 60 or 80 and up, why is it called LFE? If I cross my mains over at 60hz, the center at 60 or 70hz and the surrounds at 70hz, I was under the impression the sub is playing everything below 70hz. You're saying there's a separate stream of info playing from 10-120hz? Nevermind the subs crossover, I always open that all the way up and let the AVR send what I want to the sub...which from what I'm reading is all frequencies from 10hz-120hz?

The .5(lfe) is aseparate channel of bass content of its own that’s

mixed in by the sound engineers for the movies. If you could somehow disable

all the other channels the lfe would still pump out its own bass content. That changes

when you start setting speakers to small as I go over in the above posts. When watching

a movie the lfe bandwidth content is 20-120 Hz. If you crossover your sub lower

than that you will lose bass content that’s in that channel for that movie. That

doesn’t mean you can’t it’s just not recommended. This is for movies as the

link above goes over. So when listening to other sources like cds it would be

better to set the sub much lower than 120 Hz (probably like 50 or 60 tops).

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So, if LFE content goes from 10-120hz, and your speakers are also playing everythingfrom 60 or 80 and up, why is it called LFE? If I cross my mains over at 60hz, the center at 60 or 70hz and the surrounds at 70hz, I was under the impression the sub is playing everything below 70hz. You're saying there's a separate stream of info playing from 10-120hz? Nevermind the subs crossover, I always open that all the way up and let the AVR send what I want to the sub...which from what I'm reading is all frequencies from 10hz-120hz?

I think when you are playing music (2 channel) or anything not 5.1 encoded; only the crossover settings apply.

When playing 5.1 encoded (movie) tracks; the LFE channel is separate. (I believe). If I am mistaken on this; please correct it for me. (Break it down in a simplified manner please).

Brunt; I am with you; I let my sub do 60 hz and down.......

I may experimant more with the LFE settings; but honestly; my movies sound great and my music even better; so.....

Right on iron slave you nailed it. The .5 is separate

channel of its own but when listening to 2 channel music 120 hz would be way to

high imo. There is no perfect science to

all this so whatever sounds best to you is going to be the right setting.

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I want to thank everyone for the GREAT feed-back on this topic i started.... one wouldnt think there was so much to consider when setting up crossover points on subs, I think it helps when we remember that L.F.E. and bass management are 2 seperate items that must work together at times! and each of our systems will be set up, maybe differently when it comes to crossover points, but the general rules still apply.... Ray

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So, if LFE content goes from 10-120hz, and your speakers are also playing everythingfrom 60 or 80 and up, why is it called LFE?

On a 5.1 movie track, there are 6 seperate tracks. Left Front, Center, Right Front, Left Surround, Right Surround, And Low Frequency Effects. Typically they all have different content. It's called the Low Frequency Effect channel because all content on this particular channel is in the lower registers of the audio spectrum.

If I cross my mains over at 60hz, the center at 60 or 70hz and the surrounds at 70hz, I was under the impression the sub is playing everything below 70hz.

It is, it's taking everything below the crossover point of the LF, C, RF, LS and RS and sending it to the sub. It's ALSO sending the entire LFE channel to the sub.

You're saying there's a separate stream of info playing from 10-120hz?

Yes, it's the LFE channel.

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Just never thought of low frequency effects as something in the 100hz range, that is what I think is throwing me off.

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Just never thought of low frequency effects as something in the 100hz range, that is what I think is throwing me off.

Just think of it as about the bottom 3 octaves or so[;)].

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I want to thank everyone for the GREAT feed-back on this topic i started.... one wouldnt think there was so much to consider when setting up crossover points on subs, I think it helps when we remember that L.F.E. and bass management are 2 seperate items that must work together at times! and each of our systems will be set up, maybe differently when it comes to crossover points, but the general rules still apply.... Ray



Np ray sounds like you got the jist of it. Bass in general
for so many reasons can be really hard to get right depending on how you want
it to sound. For some it’s as simple as a $150 10” 100watt polk sub. For others
it can cost thousands. It’s easily my favorite part of ht when it’s right.



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I was just reading through this thread. I kind of knew some of these things before, but think I understand them with more clarity after reading through this. Thanks for the discussion. A few things I'm wondering if I've got right...

  1. Sounds like you always want to set the knob of your sub at 120hz or above, just so it can receive signals that high if they're coming from your LFE channel (or if you've set your crossover on your receiver higher). For example: if I have my crossover on my receiver set to 120hz, and my sub's knob set to 80hz... I'm effectively loosing everything in the 80hz - 120hz range? (Not that I would do that.)
  2. I'm assuming that when I set my crossover on my receiver, that is ONLY effecting the frequencies going to my L/R/C/SL/SR that get sent to the sub and NOT capping the LFE frequency? So if my crossover on my receiver is at 80hz, my sub could still receiver 120hz signals from LFE during a movie?
  3. My Yamaha receiver has a "level" for each channel, including the sub. Basically like a volume or output or gain or something. I'm assuming that effects ALL bass output to my sub, whether it's from LFE or taken from the other channels?
  4. When I listen to movies it sounds like there's a lot more bass than when I listen to music. I'm constantly having to push up the aforementioned "level" of the sub around 5-10dB more when listening to music. I'm assuming that's because I get both low frequencies from L/R/C/SL/SR AND LFE in movies, and only low frequencies from L/R when listening to music? (Kind of annoying constantly having to adjust the bass.)
  5. I have RF-52 IIs for my L/R (36Hz-24KHz), RC-52 II for my center (67Hz-24KHz), and RS-42 IIs for my SL/SR (62Hz-24KHz). Due to the range of all these, I'm assuming I need to set my receiver crossover at around 80hz. However, I'm wondering if I should set just my RF-52 IIs on "large" rather than "small" so they aren't effected by the crossover? Or is that not a good idea? In my head, even though they go a lot lower, seems like perhaps there's bass going to L/R channels that would probably be handled by my SUB-12 better, but wasn't sure.
  6. My Yamaha receiver has a "BASS OUT" with options of Front, Sub, and Both. Anyone know what that's about? Does it effect only LFE, only channel crossover, or all bass output?

Any expert opinion on the above would be appreciated :)

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wow,

this is why i hate forums. Nothing but wrong information gets passed around.

Set your sub crossover to 80Hz , frequencies roll off, so even though your set at 80hz the frequency band will roll off each side, so you will still produce 90 hz and above but it won't be as predominant as if you actually had the knob set at a 100 hz or a 110hz. Setting it at 80 ensures your subwoofer will reproduce the frequency below 80 hz and some of the mid range above80hz. If you set your sub at 120hz then your going to reproduce way to much mid range and its going to sound terrible. Stop thinking your going to miss something by not getting this setting right.

Set your speakers to large and call it good, let them produce what they can produce. If you want to set your receiver crossover to anything then set it to 80hz and call it good.

question 2) thats corect

question 3) don't increase levels at all, set to it to zero

question 4) thats because these yo yo's told you to set it at 120hz, set it at 80hz like i told you and tell me how much better it is for movies.

question 5 ) if you set those rf 52s to small then your going to short yourself on the low range frequency, that speaker can reach as low as 36Hz, if you decide to set it to small then your telling that speaker "hey i want you to produce 60hz and above (not sure where small actually sets the crossover for that speaker but im sure its 60hz or above). so set it to large and call it good

question 6) never heard of bass out, skip that until you know exactly what it does. Never hurts to call Yamaha directly and ask them.

So in short , like this thread should have been. Set the sub to 80hz, set your crossover to 80hz or less (lowest i would set it would be 60hz), sit back, relax and enjoy the show

I was just reading through this thread. I kind of knew some of these things before, but think I understand them with more clarity after reading through this. Thanks for the discussion. A few things I'm wondering if I've got right...

  1. Sounds like you always want to set the knob of your sub at 120hz or above, just so it can receive signals that high if they're coming from your LFE channel (or if you've set your crossover on your receiver higher). For example: if I have my crossover on my receiver set to 120hz, and my sub's knob set to 80hz... I'm effectively loosing everything in the 80hz - 120hz range? (Not that I would do that.)
  2. I'm assuming that when I set my crossover on my receiver, that is ONLY effecting the frequencies going to my L/R/C/SL/SR that get sent to the sub and NOT capping the LFE frequency? So if my crossover on my receiver is at 80hz, my sub could still receiver 120hz signals from LFE during a movie?
  3. My Yamaha receiver has a "level" for each channel, including the sub. Basically like a volume or output or gain or something. I'm assuming that effects ALL bass output to my sub, whether it's from LFE or taken from the other channels?
  4. When I listen to movies it sounds like there's a lot more bass than when I listen to music. I'm constantly having to push up the aforementioned "level" of the sub around 5-10dB more when listening to music. I'm assuming that's because I get both low frequencies from L/R/C/SL/SR AND LFE in movies, and only low frequencies from L/R when listening to music? (Kind of annoying constantly having to adjust the bass.)
  5. I have RF-52 IIs for my L/R (36Hz-24KHz), RC-52 II for my center (67Hz-24KHz), and RS-42 IIs for my SL/SR (62Hz-24KHz). Due to the range of all these, I'm assuming I need to set my receiver crossover at around 80hz. However, I'm wondering if I should set just my RF-52 IIs on "large" rather than "small" so they aren't effected by the crossover? Or is that not a good idea? In my head, even though they go a lot lower, seems like perhaps there's bass going to L/R channels that would probably be handled by my SUB-12 better, but wasn't sure.
  6. My Yamaha receiver has a "BASS OUT" with options of Front, Sub, and Both. Anyone know what that's about? Does it effect only LFE, only channel crossover, or all bass output?

Any expert opinion on the above would be appreciated :)

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I was just reading through this thread. I kind of knew some of these things before, but think I understand them with more clarity after reading through this. Thanks for the discussion. A few things I'm wondering if I've got right...

  1. Sounds like you always want to set the knob of your sub at 120hz or above, just so it can receive signals that high if they're coming from your LFE channel (or if you've set your crossover on your receiver higher). For example: if I have my crossover on my receiver set to 120hz, and my sub's knob set to 80hz... I'm effectively loosing everything in the 80hz - 120hz range? (Not that I would do that.)
  2. I'm assuming that when I set my crossover on my receiver, that is ONLY effecting the frequencies going to my L/R/C/SL/SR that get sent to the sub and NOT capping the LFE frequency? So if my crossover on my receiver is at 80hz, my sub could still receiver 120hz signals from LFE during a movie?
  3. My Yamaha receiver has a "level" for each channel, including the sub. Basically like a volume or output or gain or something. I'm assuming that effects ALL bass output to my sub, whether it's from LFE or taken from the other channels?
  4. When I listen to movies it sounds like there's a lot more bass than when I listen to music. I'm constantly having to push up the aforementioned "level" of the sub around 5-10dB more when listening to music. I'm assuming that's because I get both low frequencies from L/R/C/SL/SR AND LFE in movies, and only low frequencies from L/R when listening to music? (Kind of annoying constantly having to adjust the bass.)
  5. I have RF-52 IIs for my L/R (36Hz-24KHz), RC-52 II for my center (67Hz-24KHz), and RS-42 IIs for my SL/SR (62Hz-24KHz). Due to the range of all these, I'm assuming I need to set my receiver crossover at around 80hz. However, I'm wondering if I should set just my RF-52 IIs on "large" rather than "small" so they aren't effected by the crossover? Or is that not a good idea? In my head, even though they go a lot lower, seems like perhaps there's bass going to L/R channels that would probably be handled by my SUB-12 better, but wasn't sure.
  6. My Yamaha receiver has a "BASS OUT" with options of Front, Sub, and Both. Anyone know what that's about? Does it effect only LFE, only channel crossover, or all bass output?

Any expert opinion on the above would be appreciated :)

Looks like you’re getting it. Your Yamaha receiver’s bass out options is like a double bass feature. It gives you the option to send the lfe content to both your sub and mains. I would leave this setting to just the sub. And yes the bass goes down for music because there’s no lfe content. I wouldn’t set your sub to 120 for music. You’re going to have to find a good crossover for your room and speakers. Every room has different room gain so tinker with it tell you find what you like.

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wow, this is why i hate forums. Nothing but wrong information gets passed around. Set your sub crossover to 80Hz , frequencies roll off, so even though your set at 80hz the frequency band will roll off each side, so you will still produce 90 hz and above but it won't be as predominant as if you actually had the knob set at a 100 hz or a 110hz. Setting it at 80 ensures your subwoofer will reproduce the frequency below 80 hz and some of the mid range above80hz. If you set your sub at 120hz then your going to reproduce way to much mid range and its going to sound terrible. Stop thinking your going to miss something by not getting this setting right. Set your speakers to large and call it good, let them produce what they can produce. If you want to set your receiver crossover to anything then set it to 80hz and call it good. question 2) thats corect question 3) don't increase levels at all, set to it to zero question 4) thats because these yo yo's told you to set it at 120hz, set it at 80hz like i told you and tell me how much better it is for movies. question 5 ) if you set those rf 52s to small then your going to short yourself on the low range frequency, that speaker can reach as low as 36Hz, if you decide to set it to small then your telling that speaker "hey i want you to produce 60hz and above (not sure where small actually sets the crossover for that speaker but im sure its 60hz or above). so set it to large and call it good question 6) never heard of bass out, skip that until you know exactly what it does. Never hurts to call Yamaha directly and ask them. So in short , like this thread should have been. Set the sub to 80hz, set your crossover to 80hz or less (lowest i would set it would be 60hz), sit back, relax and enjoy the show

I was just reading through this thread. I kind of knew some of these things before, but think I understand them with more clarity after reading through this. Thanks for the discussion. A few things I'm wondering if I've got right...

  1. Sounds like you always want to set the knob of your sub at 120hz or above, just so it can receive signals that high if they're coming from your LFE channel (or if you've set your crossover on your receiver higher). For example: if I have my crossover on my receiver set to 120hz, and my sub's knob set to 80hz... I'm effectively loosing everything in the 80hz - 120hz range? (Not that I would do that.)
  2. I'm assuming that when I set my crossover on my receiver, that is ONLY effecting the frequencies going to my L/R/C/SL/SR that get sent to the sub and NOT capping the LFE frequency? So if my crossover on my receiver is at 80hz, my sub could still receiver 120hz signals from LFE during a movie?
  3. My Yamaha receiver has a "level" for each channel, including the sub. Basically like a volume or output or gain or something. I'm assuming that effects ALL bass output to my sub, whether it's from LFE or taken from the other channels?
  4. When I listen to movies it sounds like there's a lot more bass than when I listen to music. I'm constantly having to push up the aforementioned "level" of the sub around 5-10dB more when listening to music. I'm assuming that's because I get both low frequencies from L/R/C/SL/SR AND LFE in movies, and only low frequencies from L/R when listening to music? (Kind of annoying constantly having to adjust the bass.)
  5. I have RF-52 IIs for my L/R (36Hz-24KHz), RC-52 II for my center (67Hz-24KHz), and RS-42 IIs for my SL/SR (62Hz-24KHz). Due to the range of all these, I'm assuming I need to set my receiver crossover at around 80hz. However, I'm wondering if I should set just my RF-52 IIs on "large" rather than "small" so they aren't effected by the crossover? Or is that not a good idea? In my head, even though they go a lot lower, seems like perhaps there's bass going to L/R channels that would probably be handled by my SUB-12 better, but wasn't sure.
  6. My Yamaha receiver has a "BASS OUT" with options of Front, Sub, and Both. Anyone know what that's about? Does it effect only LFE, only channel crossover, or all bass output?

Any expert opinion on the above would be appreciated :)

If you hate forums why are you reading and posting? There is no perfect science to this so if someone wants to try different things then they should. Setting your sub to 80 Hz for movies is fine but it’s not the recommended number in any normal set up. Would love to hear the facts behind why it’s the best way because you failed to give any. The fact that subs have 24db/12db (ported/sealed) roll offs is irrelevant. Could you please list what was posted that was wrong and then please list the facts to why before just calling people yo yo’s.

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