chambers1517 Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I have been listening to my Audyssey equipped AVR for a while and thought it sounded good. Then I read high sensitivity speakers creat an issue. I noticed all channels were cut 12db. I didn't even think about this being the max amount and that my speakers were not balanced. I set my sub to 75 which is what Audyessey tells you to do during setup. Then it tries to set the remaining channels to 75. Since 12db cut is the max, all of the other channels are running hotter than the subs. The other channels are not balanced either since the goal is to get all channels to 75. It doesnt care if they are not balanced Audyssey only tries to set all channels to 75db. So my Lascalas are still 6 db too hot and the surrounds are 3 db too hot. Just wondering if anyone else has this situation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brac Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 IDK, what to do with that, but I sure wouldn't want a governor, steeling signal from my speakers. Got to let those puppies breath! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I don't have an Audyessey based AVR, but I do run another piece of Audyssey-based equipment. It's not the speaker's fault if the DSP is trying to trim them so much. It's a gain-staging issue. The sub, especially depending upon what design it is, is going to run much "hotter" than the LCR & surrounds. ~10-20 dBW typically. Reset the receiver to start from scratch, turn off the subwoofer, then set the receiver to emit it's built-in test tones. Turn that up to 75 dB SPL at the listening position when the tones come out of the mains and note the AVR volume setting. While still playing the test tones, turn on the sub. Then adjust the subwoofer's crossover point (on the actual subwoofer) as high of frequency it will go, then adjust the subwoofer amplifier's volume knob until the meter or mic at the listening position reads 75 db SPL. From that point you can re-run Audyssey. The volume setting on the AVR should be quite low and the knob on the subwoofer amplifier should be higher than what it was before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 ...but I sure wouldn't want a governor, steeling signal from my speakers. Got to let those puppies breath! It doesn't work like that. There's nothing being "stolen" from anything. It's just the DSP in the AVR trying to level the playing field and make everything work. The amplifiers inside the AVR and the speakers hooked to them don't know any different. In this case, the subwoofer is simply being asked to loaf along, while it should actually be working harder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonJCarney Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 ...but I sure wouldn't want a governor, steeling signal from my speakers. Got to let those puppies breath! It doesn't work like that. There's nothing being "stolen" from anything. It's just the DSP in the AVR trying to level the playing field and make everything work. The amplifiers inside the AVR and the speakers hooked to them don't know any different. In this case, the subwoofer is simply being asked to loaf along, while it should actually be working harder. That's the exact opposite of what's going on. Audyssy asks my speakers to loaf along at -12db.... Not my sub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Be sure the horns are pointed directly at the mic when calibrating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornfedksboy Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Be sure the horns are pointed directly at the mic when calibrating. Except you use 6 positions to calibrate. It's not going to point at them every time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superedge88 Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Audyssey is simply exposing the weak point in your system, which evidently is your subwoofer. Simply set the subwoofer amplifier gain higher, simple solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornfedksboy Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Audyssey is simply exposing the weak point in your system, which evidently is your subwoofer. Simply set the subwoofer amplifier gain higher, simple solution. I don't think so. It's a weakness between highly efficient speakers and the receivers ability to cut the gain. The software uses the sub tone to get the sub to 75 db. Then it raises or lowers (with Klipsch it lowers) the gain to match. Since the receiver will trim a maximum of 12 db and the speakers are running at ~ 93 db in the neutral position, the receiver can't bring the gain low enough to match so it bottoms out at about 79 db. The way to fix this is to set your sub to 85 db during the test tone sequence. Audyssey will then trim your speakers to match at 85 without bottoming out. Then your "Reference level" is set to -10 instead of zero. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superedge88 Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 We're saying the same thing, with a more powerful subwoofer there would be no problem. what I've learned of Audyssey is that it lowers all gain levels to the weakest component in the system, so since the subwoofer is no where near as sensitive as the main speakers with its amplifier gain knob set at 50%, then crank up the subwoofer gain knob so that Audyssey doesn't have to cut back the gain on the main speakers so much. Or just use Audyssey as is, then use a DB meter to set gain settings to whatever reference level you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superedge88 Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Audyssey is simply exposing the weak point in your system, which evidently is your subwoofer. Simply set the subwoofer amplifier gain higher, simple solution. I don't think so. It's a weakness between highly efficient speakers and the receivers ability to cut the gain. The software uses the sub tone to get the sub to 75 db. Then it raises or lowers (with Klipsch it lowers) the gain to match. Since the receiver will trim a maximum of 12 db and the speakers are running at ~ 93 db in the neutral position, the receiver can't bring the gain low enough to match so it bottoms out at about 79 db. The way to fix this is to set your sub to 85 db during the test tone sequence. Audyssey will then trim your speakers to match at 85 without bottoming out. Then your "Reference level" is set to -10 instead of zero. After reading through your post again I think I now realize what you're saying. That at 0 DB the receiver is unable to trim the speakers back far enough to get down to 75 DB. I guess we're not saying the same thing. With external amplifiers this would be no problem with this, it would just be a matter of setting amplifier gain knobs low to help Audyssey in trimming the gain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornfedksboy Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 After reading through your post again I think I now realize what you're saying. That at 0 DB the receiver is unable to trim the speakers back far enough to get down to 75 DB. I guess we're not saying the same thing. With external amplifiers this would be no problem with this, it would just be a matter of setting amplifier gain knobs low to help Audyssey in trimming the gain. Correct! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 That's the exact opposite of what's going on. Audyssy asks my speakers to loaf along at -12db.... Not my sub. Re-read the OP's post and think about what the subwoofer will be doing to play with the LaScala's. Cutting the main signal level in relationship to the subwoofer signal level yields more output from the sub when you turn the volume dial back up on the AVR to achieve the SPL you normally listen to. The DSP would cut a lot more than 12 dB out of the signal if it could, but it can't. So the main signal relative to the sub signal is too much. Just like he said. 3 of us are saying the same thing. Turn the volume knob on the subwoofer up before running the tests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonJCarney Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 We are saying the same thing. I was just stating it different (perhaps only in my head). The Onkyo is not having to put out much power to the klipsch (cause the sensitivity) and thus tries to match that same out put in the sub. So to correct that you need to juice your subs up higher and your klipsch will be just "putting" along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Quiet Hollow's first point was a terrific idea to try. That's what I would do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chambers1517 Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 Actually I tried to raise the sub level but Audyssey just cuts it back also. If you raise the sub level 10 db it cuts it 10back db. It tries to set every channel to 75l. If some channels are too hot it doesn't matter. I sent a question to Ask Audyssey and they r8ecommended putting a volume contrmol on the microphone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnydrama Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 This thread has had me extremely intrigued and worried both at the same time all day. I've told my wife I'm gonna need a few hours to calibrate and tweak things tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornfedksboy Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 This thread has had me extremely intrigued and worried both at the same time all day. I've told my wife I'm gonna need a few hours to calibrate and tweak things tomorrow. This isn't always an issue. My listening position is far enough away and my speakers (RF-82 7.2) are inefficient enough that my gain is cut to -9 dbs, thus preserving the cal mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Actually I tried to raise the sub level but Audyssey just cuts it back also. If you raise the sub level 10 db it cuts it 10back db. Are you raising the sub level by raising the trim level in the AVR, or are you actually turning up the volume knob on the subwoofer amplifier? I'm really interested in what kind of subwoofer you're using. What is it and where is it placed in your room? La Scalas (and most other Klipsch) get loud using very little power, so if your sub is slacking in the SPL department (which most are) , the drive signal has to be boosted to make up for the difference. In that the sub is the first thing measured however, everything else more sensitive is going to have get it's signal cut to avoid walking all over it. Audyssey at that point is just the referee trying to keep the loud ones from over-running the quieter one (the subwoofer in this case). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 You could always just set the relative channel levels manually.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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