westom Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Tom, please expound on the joules business, within the context of such a device in line after a whole house system. Also, if you could, talk about voltage variances, how to stabilize those (the Florida problem...), and sine wave output vs simulated sine wave output. 1) If a UPS does a sine wave output, then its spec numbers define that sine wave with parameters such as %THD. Why no numbers? Because a UPS in battery backup mode is some of the 'dirtiest' power in the house. For example, this sine wave 120 volt UPS outputs 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. Using high school math, even dirtiest power is nothing more than a sum of sine waves. Advertising - especially when it has no numbers - can claim almost anything. Dirtiest UPS is also outputting sine waves. Another example of why advertising can claim almost anything without numbers. A utility shows what a UPS output looks like in "Standby Power Supplies Can Lock Up Your PC": http://www.duke-energy.com/indiana-business/products/power-quality/tech-tip-03.asp 2) Normal voltage for all electronics is even when incandescent bulbs dim to less than 50% intensity. A power supply must make such variances irrelevant. If voltage drops lower, then electronics simply power off. Why do your lights not dim to 50% intensity? Because voltages that low are harmful to motorized appliances such as the refrigerator or furnace. If your lights are dimming that much, then get a serious problem fixed. In rare cases, lights dimming that much means a major human safety problem in household wiring. Never cure symptoms with a UPS. Always cure the problem. Get the wires fixed. Or get the utility to fix their defect. 3) A surge is an electric current seeking earth. If nothing is blocking that connection, then the surge current creates near zero voltage. Anything inline that might stop, block, filter, or obstruct that current is overwhelmed by an increasing voltage. Voltage will increase as necessary to blow through anything obstructing it. A voltage rises as high as necessary to blow through an in-line protector. Either dam a river. Or build dikes. A dam (like an in-line protector) will never stop a flood. A dike works because a flood has a better path downstream. The flood need not use a town, destructively, to flow downstream. That is what a 'whole house' protector does. Gives every flood (a surge) a shorter and non-destructive path downstream (to earth). What happens when someone tries to dam a flood or surge? Its joules increase against the dam or protector. That energy blows through a dam or protector. And still flows destructively through the town or electronics. Protection is always about where that energy - the joules - dissipate. A surge current dissipates harmlessly in earth IF connected low impedance (less than 10 feet) to earth by a 'whole house' protector. If that current path goes to earth via household appliances, then hundreds of thousands of joules are hunting for and finding a path to earth destructively inside electronics. Floods and surges are never stopped or blocked by inline protectors. Those protectors are profit centers. A surge current must have a path to earth that remains outside the building. Either energy is inside destructively finding earth via appliances. Or energy has a shortest path to earth (outside the building) via one 'whole house' protector. How does an 800 joule protector absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? Its 800 joules (tens cent protector parts) must absorb hundreds of thousands of joules to stop, obstruct, and absorb a surge. Near zero joules in a protector or UPS means advertising can call it a 100% surge protector. Ironically, when a grossly undersized protector fails, the naïve recommend it and buy more. So that hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate harmlessly in earth, an informed homeowner earths one ‘whole house’ protector rated at least at 50,000 amps. Even sells in Home Depot and Lowes for less than $50. About $1 per protected appliance. As demonstrated in first paragraphs, advertising works as long as numbers are ignored. Near zero joules in an 800 joule protector means advertising can, subjectively, call it 100% protection. Scams are easily promoted when one does not always demand the numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panacea Engineering Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I believe you are trying to say that a properly grounded electrical service will prevent destructive Fault Current from entering the structure and eliminates the need for usless advertised protection devices. I'm sorry, but I am a thirty six year (Graduated in 76) Electrical/Mechanical Engineer and what you just wrote, is difficult if not impossible to follow or understand for a Layman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westom Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I believe you are trying to say that a properly grounded electrical service will prevent destructive Fault Current from entering the structure and eliminates the need for usless advertised protection devices. Not quite. I said nothing about fault currents. But anything this new requires at least three rereads to grasp. Apparently you are hearing about this 100+ year old technology for the first time. Major differences exist even between earth ground and a wall receptacle safety ground. Even that will not be apparent without rereading. Everything posted is layman simple. But it is new. Did you know earth ground and safety ground are electrically different? Your service can have proper grounding per the National Electrical code. And still have no protection. How many AC electric wires enter your building? Three? Each wire must have a path to earth ground that is 'less than 10 feet' long (low impedance). If any one does not connect to earth, then no protection exists. It is that layman simple. If the 100 year old concept is new, then it is also diffilcult. Reread what was posted. Three AC wires enter. All three must have a low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth. Your EE training should explain why that distance is so important. I did not say resistance. Resistance is irrelevant. I said impedance. BTW my engineering experience is a few years longer. Including a few decades doing this stuff. Because flight hardware must never be damaged. Ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panacea Engineering Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I'm a pilot since 64 also, this should be interesting..........[H] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panacea Engineering Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Weston, By the way, my degree is in Power - Generation/Transmission/Distribution and I totally understand TVSS (Transient Voltage Surge Surpression), It is certainly not necessary for you to talk "Down" to me, PLEASE. I am just saying that most of the people that you are adressing on THIS Forum may not have the same level of understanding....Hence all of the miss information on so called Power Conditioners and other related items that have little to no effect on protecting equipment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westom Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Hence all of the miss information on so called Power Conditioners and other related items that have little to no effect on protecting equipment.Misinformation works when the reader does not ask a simple question. Where are the numbers? No numbers is a first indication of a scam. A recommendation without spec numbers says the recommendation is mocking the reader. And it works. Most only learn from advertising that is subjective. Most only entertain their emotions. It feels good. So it must be true. You would be old enough to remember this. In the 1950s, most knew smoking increased health. Because advertising said so. They got angry (emotional) in 1964 when the Surgeon General said cigarettes kill. Anger because it must not be true. They were told by advertising that smoking increases health. Scams are that easily promoted. Especially with power conditioners. The bottom line remains. Something in simple layman terms is not understood until at least the third reread. That talks down to no one. Anything new takes at least three rereads to grasp. Anything understood in a first reading was, for the most part, already known. Something that new always requires rereading. Even the Surgeon General's conclusions required multiple rereads. Because it was so new. And contradicted popular urban myths Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Lost power last night.... Big surges coming in and out, low power, then high, while the FPL folks screwed around wherever the problem was located..... End result? No major appliance damages. But my telephone answering machine no longer works very well (LOL). Now the rest of the stuff is ok, but the battery UPS's now have a "message" saying that they need replacing!!! LOL!!!! Oh well, at least I survived the "attack".... This is fun!!! [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I did not say resistance. Resistance is irrelevant. I said impedance. WE ARE THE BORG. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE. anything this new requires at least three rereads to grasp RESISTANCE IS FUTILE. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westom Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 RESISTANCE IS FUTILE. Excuse me. I'm not sure. Did you say you were Borg? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 "We" are Borg, LOL!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubo Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Living near Chicago, power outages are not uncommon, frequently with several bounces before the failure. I have almost everything in the house on power strips of one type or another mostly for convenience since the outlets aren't near the appliance in many cases. I think the idea of grounded whole house lightning protection is intuitively obvious once the idea is put forth. A problem with a $100 solution is no problem at all. As to the power conditioning, my friend who designs IC for very expensive industrial equipment summarized it nicely for me, "yes a clean sine wave is a good idea". To my eye, the Plasma picture improved as did the sound of the stereo. If its a placebo, its a good one, my 12 year old noticed the difference immediately in the TV picture. YMMV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RRFL Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 "We" are Borg, LOL!!!!! 7 of 9 meets all powered conditions.[ip] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I do not need electricity, power conditioners, batteries (well maybe but we won't go there if you don't mind...). or anything else if this is controlling me.... [6] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 a power conditioner is not necessary, unless of course it is necessary, then of course, you need one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 a haiku if ever I saw one, LOL!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RRFL Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 I do not need electricity, power conditioners, batteries (well maybe but we won't go there if you don't mind...). or anything else if this is controlling me.... That's because 7 of 9 is a balanced power pack. Some people wonder why I target to do 16 gym classes each week, maybe, it's the company, it's what they are wearing, I was out numbered 18 - 1 in Pliates last Monday and then the teacher asked me to move into the centre so the new girls could follow my lead. Then on Thursday there were 17 different potential 7 of 9's. Of course I go to all the Pilates and Yoga classes as it's very good for general health.[:-*] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubo Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Someone should run an Advertisement in the singles pages for a week of touring, fine dining and "clubbing" in France and see who replies. Be sure to specify females so that her husband is not first in line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 LOL!!!! [Y] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n1pj Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I notice that mine helps. The lines on the tv are sharper and I noticed a deeper soundstage then when I have it plugged into an outlet. You can't get a low quality piece of equipment and expect it to work. I have moved away from coils in my Power line conditioners. I don't buy panamax equipment. They may look nice but besides the sleek voltage ratings and their lit up faces they do nothing. There is a company that specializes in high end Power line filtering called Cheng Lightspeed. They specialize in delivering non coil equipment. I have their X series H1 with hyper drive. It gives you 12 outlets which 4 are digital outlets which provide level 1 filtration for your HD devices. It was kind of pricey hovering around 2000 but when you factor in that it doesn't have coils that can rob power that amps need and the benefit of isolated line conditioning it was worth it. http://www.changlightspeed.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LHF63 Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Some people wonder why I target to do 16 gym classes each week, maybe, it's the company, it's what they are wearing, I was out numbered 18 - 1 in Pliates last Monday and then the teacher asked me to move into the centre so the new girls could follow my lead. Then on Thursday there were 17 different potential 7 of 9's. Same reason I send my wife to "Old Ladies" yoga. [] Lou Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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