moray james Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 For a little while now I have been thinking about making the jump from light speed into warp speed or in Klipsch twems small format one inch exit drivers to large format two inch drivers. Seems simple enough but it's a whole shift of how you do things and what you will need to do the job. I find myself with more to think about than I imagined. The benefit in a nushel is lower distortion greater power handeling more head room all that good stuff. So it occured to me that I could double my headroom and half my distortion (in the mid) by using two one inch throat mid horns in parallel. A basic set up could be woofer- mid - tweeter - mid. Crossover adjustments would have to be made I am not suggesting dropping this into an existing design. The two mids should be close enough (I hope) to couple and behave more like one than two horns at least at the low end of their range. I am simply thinking out loud here hoping rhat some of you may find the idea of interest and comment or make suggestions. Fire away. Best regards Moray James. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 yes...but for a different reason(s) http://www.jblpro.com/pub/technote/tn_v1n07.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted February 14, 2012 Author Share Posted February 14, 2012 Thanks: my eyes are getting bleary. Will have to read this in the AM. Appreciate the input. Best regards Moray James. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 If you really want to try this (and make it work), do it the way Electro-Voice recommends: Use three identical horns, the top horn aims down a bit, the middle horn faces straight forward, the bottom horn faces up a bit. The middle horn is equalized to run flat all the way up, the top and bottom horns are allowed to naturally roll off (in the upper midrange). This curved array virtually eliminates the comb-filter effects shown in the JBL graphs. The JBL 2371 horn is a budget version of the 2370 and can be found for under $10 or so if you look. They are about 15" wide by 5" tall, making for a nice 15" tall array on a set of three. http://audiolabga.com/mal_cart/mal_cart.php?find=GOLDWOOD (GM500PB) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 From what I have heard with my own ears at various audio gatherings in the comparison tests, is that it may be better to just upgrade the mid-horn and stay with a single 1" driver, for a budget solution. The home made wooden tractrix horns that are available are excellent. You can get them for use with 1" drivers (or 2") and just bolt them in. From what I personally have heard they make a huge difference and may be what you are looking for without spending too much. Just another idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share Posted February 15, 2012 Don't suppose you have a link to the info at EV on this? What kind of a tilt do you need? How the heck do you wire up three horn drivers? Series? Thanks this sounds very interesting. Best regads Moray James. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share Posted February 15, 2012 From what I have heard with my own ears at various audio gatherings in the comparison tests, is that it may be better to just upgrade the mid-horn and stay with a single 1" driver, for a budget solution. The home made wooden tractrix horns that are available are excellent. You can get them for use with 1" drivers (or 2") and just bolt them in. From what I personally have heard they make a huge difference and may be what you are looking for without spending too much. Just another idea. Yes this was another consideration, though some of these Goldwood horns and a few others look to be really good horn clones in many cases and they are stupid cheap. I think if I was going to do a home brew horn it would likely be a simple conical design that was easy to make, The Goldwood Gm450PBP Is probably a better horn than any small shop after market product you could ever find and they are about $45.00 each. You just can't do better than that. That one is a two inch throat but there are also deals on one inch throat horns as well. Thanks for the suggestion. I may have to sell some of my driver collection to make this happen. Best regards Moray James. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 FWIW, the idea of multiple 1" horns seems more complicated and possibly more expensive that a single 2". When I started messing around with 2" drivers and horns, I did it as inexpensively as I could in case I didn't like the result. Basic 2" horns are faily inexpensive and you can start off with less expensive drivers. That was one reason I used the P. Audio drivers. I used them for a year and only upgraded to the Faital Pro when they were available through Bob Crites at a reasonable price. Had I not been working on a two way speaker, the P. Audio drivers would have done the job just fine with a tweeter for the very HF. I have since sold all my initial gear, so I didn't lose much in the transaction and was able to get into the 2" horn and driver solution. If you keep any eye on the Garage sale forum and on eBay, there are good deals to be had on that kind of gear. Good luck with your project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted February 16, 2012 Author Share Posted February 16, 2012 Have spent a good while searching without success. Does anybody know the name of the EV system which Dennis is referring to? I have sent of a couple of posts to EV in Canada and in the States.Thanks for any direction with this as it sounds very interesting. Best regards Moray James. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted February 16, 2012 Author Share Posted February 16, 2012 Thank you Rudy. Well so far things are still in the reading and asking stage. I guess this business with multiple horns is dependant upon what EV were able to figure out. Multiple smaller driverscould have some distinct advantages. Does anybody know what the average plus minus travel range of a 2 inch comp diaphragm Vs a 3 inch comp diaphragm? I am going to imagine not a lot of difference if any but I don't know for sure. You would get an advantage in radiating area with three 2 inch diaphragms (one inch exit) over a single 3 inch diaphragm (2 inch exit) that for surethen there is the added power handling and then there would be the increase in the frequency of the break up mode of a 2 inchdiaphragm over a 3 inch diaphragmnot to mention the reduction in the moving mass of a 2 inch diaphragm Vs a 3 inch diaphragm. The trick I guess is getting three horns to behave as one. Any one remember these or use them in a past life? Best regards Moray James. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I'm not very knowledgable on this technical stuff so I should probably not display my ignorance here....(but here I go []) You are contemplating multiple horns wired together to act as a larger horn and garner the benefits of lower distortion, higher headroom.... Would this be analogous to those who buy an extra pair of Advents or Mach 1's or (enter anything I suppose.... LaScalas....) flip the top speaker and make a double high speaker in an effort to couple those together for similar benefits? That strikes me as the complicated way to try to achieve a goal when simply getting a bigger hammer might be easier (understandably at perhaps a higher expense) Forgetting cost for a moment (note Claude's system being put together with some cost efficiencies), I've read on forums about the complications of going active. I had never been associated with an active nor I would not have known what an XLR was if it bit me in the butt. It was as challangeing to me as it could have been for anyone. Here I am now, fully active system that works fine & sounds great. I can't fathom the process to take two/three midrange horns and configure them together electronically and then give them some kind of upward/center/downward firing pattern. How would I mount them? How would I hold them? (I really don't know but could probably cob something together) How would I cross to them? I admire those who get creative and put unique things together.... it's beyond me. I'm a simpleton plug/play kinda guy who's fundamentally lazy [] With that as my predisposition, I've got to wonder if it's simply a better solution to get the right tools for the job. You want to get larger format sound? I've just got to think that larger format drivers/horns will get you there with more ease than multiple smaller/normal format horns. No?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 The EV app note was for using three HR9040 (or HR6040) horns with DH1012 drivers, I have not see a copy of this note since the late 70s (although I recently saw an install wirh the horns set up like this). The system had two amplifiers on the HF, the amplifier driving the center horn was EQ'd to go all the way up. For hi-fi I would try an inexpensive pair of phenolic mids (perhaps Selenium), with a driver with good HF for the center horn. I would use a simple cap on the center horn to bing it in around where the phenolics were starting to roll, and just let the phenolics run out. This might only cost $150 a side with all Selenium drivers and the Goldwood horns, vs a minimum of $350 a side for the Faital driver and horn. If you have a bunch of inexpensive phenolics laying around (I had lots of EV 1823/1824, etc), it's easy and inexpensive to try. If you have lots of money to burn, there are other solutions. The tilt brackets are very easy, just kerf some aluminum angle to bolt the horns to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted February 16, 2012 Author Share Posted February 16, 2012 Dennis.do you have a picture of one of these set ups? What kinf of tilt is required (degrees). Is this what you are referring to, https://almin.memberclicks.net/assets/Documents/WinterSymposia/InvitedPapersWS2011/keele%20-%20intro%20to%20cbt%20loudspeaker%20arrays%20pt.%201%20of%203.pdf thanks for any additional information. Best regards Moray James. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Keele's CBT designs have been licensed by JBL. It's not quite the same thing. Our school is looking at the JBL products for our chapel and huge dining hall. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted February 16, 2012 Author Share Posted February 16, 2012 Bruce I was trying to figure out what the design concept was called so I could search mor effectively for info at the EV download bank of old speaker info. I did not have too much to go on. I sent a letter to Keele Jr as I figured he would know. I think this is a very interesting idea and Dennis is right it could be cost effective. I would be a whole lot more comfortable with some additional information though. Thanks for responding. Best regards Moray James. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 According to Dennis, with the the EV arrangement, the horns are in a concave alignment. I haven't been able to find anything in the EV notes, either... [:^)] Bruce edit: The CBTs from Keele/JBL are convex... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Concave, like the MTM1900. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted February 16, 2012 Author Share Posted February 16, 2012 My google attempt at MTM1900 gave me nothing I could see related to audio but that's just my google. So what is an MTM1900? I wrote to Keele's son to see if I could get any info on the stacked horn design. Dennis did you find any kind of a reference or even an image? I spent a good while looking at images but did not come up with a single picture of the horns stacked. The HR9040 sure was a monster a great white monster. Thanks and best regards Moray James. PS: here is a great picture of a single HR9040 in the back of a pick up just for scale. Imagine three of these stacked. A single K402 has patern control, three HR9040 vertically stacked and you have to call flight control to check for available air space and permission to take off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panacea Engineering Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Moray, Had you Googled MCM 1900 you would have found some information on the MTM part of the system. It contains five K-77's in a concave array similar to what, I think, you are looking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I made a bunch of those arrays in the late 70s (bought a case of 100 tweeters). I carried a dozen LS bottoms, four K400 mids, and one pair of MTM 1900s, a pair of LSI for side fill, and some custom dual 12 horns for low mid. I never got to run more than four LS bottoms a side though, that was enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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