CaptnBob Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 Whenever I ask this at a hardware store, the sales people look at me like I was an unaddressed envelope. But I figure if anyone knew, it would be you. What are the advantages and disavantages of hide wood glue versus the cream-colored wood glue? One says it's "best for furniture" while the other claims "stronger than the original wood." Thank you in advance for your time and expertise. Capt'n Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 OK...this is a pretty easy question. The brown hide-type glues are great glues in their own right. They form a good bond with wood, especially in the end-grains. The biggest advantages of them show up when gluing up miter joints and any other joint with end-grains involved, since the end-grain soaks the glue into it well. But one GREAT advantage is that they have no latex in them!! Paints and stains adhere to hide-type glues and can be absorbed by them because they are porous and made from hides...unlike the latex-type glues!! In other words, they disappear into the background when stained or oiled!! The disadvantage of them is that the glue itself is the bond...if a joint fails, it is the glue itself that fails! That is why proper consistency of the glue is essential when using hide-type brown glues...don't apply it if it is too thick or too thin!! The "white" type wood glues form a bond into the long grain of the wood. The glue penetrates between the fibers and actually bonds into them. Normally when a joint using these glues fails, it does not do so along the glue seam, but within the long fibers of the wood along either side of it...leaving a splintery mess to clean up!! That is why they are preferred for lap joints and edge gluing...anyplace where end-grain is not the only grain there...and they work very well with plywood miters, because plywood has BOTH long-grain and end-grain and the better bond on these long-grains is stronger!! Very strong bonds are made with these glues, BUT...they have latex in them, and do not absorb stains or paints well...and show up looking like plastic when the glue is revealed!! Even when one wipes up the excess of a squeeze-out with a wet paper towel, some of this residue remains in the wood fiber, and necessitates sanding to remove the residue in order for the wood to take a stain well!! In most fine furniture using veneered lumbercore or solid woods, the end-grain joints are glued up with a brown hide-type glue, and the interior reinforcing blocks for the joints are installed with the white-type glues!! The same technique was used in building the finely veneered lumbercore speakers with mitered edges at Klipsch. That procedure negates the negative aspects of white-type glues in the miters, and adds the extra holding power for the reinforcing blocks inside the speakers(the things you don't see from the outside). ------------------ If you want to send a private message, or have already done so, be aware I have not as yet been able to retrieve them. Send e-maill instead, please...just note Klipsch forum in the heading so it doesn't get deleted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 Wow. I am constantly amazed at how much useful new info, much of which is not related to audio let alone Klipsch, I learn from this board. Thanks, HDBR, for the reply to Capt'nBob. I'm going to be working on a restoration project (old coffee table with miter joints around the perifery of the top) and the info on the hide glues is quite timely. Being a total novice here, can you mention a couple of brand names or specific products that are true "hide=type" glues that I could look for, as I have this feeling that if I went into Home Depot and started asking questions I'd rapidly find out how little I know about this stuff... Thanks! ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Ray's Music System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptnBob Posted May 22, 2002 Author Share Posted May 22, 2002 Hi, HDBR, Thanks for the explanation. It's exactly what I needed to know. Capt'n Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 Ray, I will run to Home Depot in the morning and look at what they have...I am sure they have something I have used before...let ya know then. ------------------ If you want to send a private message, or have already done so, be aware I have not as yet been able to retrieve them. Send e-maill instead, please...just note Klipsch forum in the heading so it doesn't get deleted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hetmann Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 Hide glue is highly prized in the building of stringed instruments for its many properties including shear strength. But one of the most important is that a hide glue joint can be disassembled safely with the application of a little heat and moisture (steam). This allows for future repairs to the instrument. ------------------ Klipschorns and Moondogs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 when gluing with hide glue a few things to consider 1. must be fresh, if it isn't the bond strength suffers. 2. end-grain gluing-->for maximum bond strength, warm the ends of each board with a heat gun, apply a thin coat of warm glue with a small paint brush to the each end-grain to be joined and let it diffuse in and dry. On the next day, paint both joints with warm glue, brad nail and then drive screws. the boards should be pre-drilled for screws and the screws *loaded* in one board before glueing. 3. I don't like lumber core plywood for enclosures, I only use veneer core plywood. The ends of veneer core, if cut with a 60 tooth carbide blade do not suck up too much glue. also veneer core holds screws alot better. 4. hide glue has zero resistance to moisture, if it gets wet is comes apart. 5. hide glue has tremendous holding capacity. I have cracked 90° butt-jointed 13-ply veneer core glue joints in the plywood. 6. it is very slow setting, a HUGE asset when building Klipschorns. 7. it is corrosive when wet and can get corrosive if damp weather, use stainless steel screws. 8. it can be purchased in cake form for use in hot pots. when it cools it hardens, can be re-used, smells awful. 9. its been around for 600 years, it must be good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 John, The brown hide-type glues the company uses in PART of the speaker building are not a "purist's" hide glue, but are an extremely fine powdered hybrid of hoof/hide/and other additive glue. This is relatively fast-setting,water soluble, but much more moisture resistant once it has set-up. It is also much more resistant to humidity and heat than pure hide glue. It is excellent for applications in end-grain of lumbercore. For over a century, this particular hybrid hide-type glue has been used in the furniture industry. Pure hide-glue is great stuff, but due to the nature of furniture building, this later hybrid is easier to use, and has the same holding power, without the drawbacks of as high a susceptibility to moisture and heat. Of course, the applications to the speaker cabinets are primarily to the mitered joints, which are reinforced from the inside with blocks, staples and a white glue! Hide glue is still the adhesive of choice for many solid wood applications though...and in the wooden music instrument business...pianos, guitars, etc. There are many pieces of fine furniture that have their hide glue bonds intact after 300 or more years...musical instruments, too! Quite a tribute to the bonding abilities of a pure hide glue!! ------------------ If you want to send a private message, or have already done so, be aware I have not as yet been able to retrieve them. Send e-maill instead, please...just note Klipsch forum in the heading so it doesn't get deleted. This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 05-22-2002 at 08:41 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOUNDJUNKIE Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 Hey, what hides are we talking about. Horses, pigs, sheeps or cows? Wait...that reminds me of a little ditty that my 3 & 5 year olds likes to sing, it goes like this: Hay is for horses, sheeps and cows, pigs would eat it, but they don't know how! TOO GOD DAMN FUNNY! What's the anwser? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 Soundjunkie- You got it wrong, buddy. It gets its name from hardware store employees tucking the bottles of the stuff way behind other things on the shelves. fini Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted May 23, 2002 Share Posted May 23, 2002 Made from any ground up rawhide...but cow or deerhide always preferred. One of the oldest adhesives known. Originally made from chewing up rawhide and spitting it out as glue! Even ancient Egyptian tomb furniture was built using it!! ------------------ If you want to send a private message, or have already done so, be aware I have not as yet been able to retrieve them. Send e-maill instead, please...just note Klipsch forum in the heading so it doesn't get deleted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted May 23, 2002 Share Posted May 23, 2002 HDBR-Do you know what Klipsch was using to glue up a Klipschorn in 1982? I have a pair of KDBRs here with glue lines that are brown. the glue is very brittle. some of the glue lines are cracked. these have never seen water. I've gone into the horns and "repaired" the joints with strips of Muslin soaked in Weldwood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted May 23, 2002 Share Posted May 23, 2002 John, I can't remember offhand the brand of that glue. We got it in 55 gallon heavy plastic-lined cardboard drums in powdered form. In 1982, the k-horn builders were new guys...most of the old builders were gone by then. Robert Wyatt was the only builder who had been around long who built k-horns on a regular basis, but he was often building LaScalas or mitered Heresys or working with me. The other old-hand builders were relegated to Belles at that time. And I was over on Heresys, Cornwalls, and Industrial speakers. It is likely that whoever built that k-horn had either let his batch of glue set-up too long (on hot days we would have to mix up glue as many as 5 times a day),or had taken too long to get those parts in place, or had mixed his glue up too thin to try and make it last longer. New builders were prone to do that! Those glue seams get hard, but if the glue is the proper consistency when applied, they will not crack. Over time, though, with speakers being moved from place to place, and with all the separate parts involved, I guess some seams COULD crack ...hard for me to call it without seeing it. Either way only a few seams in a k-horn are supposed to have brown glue used, the rest are supposed to be white glue. I know that some of the new builders would often get caught using brown glue on seams that were supposed to be white glue. Certain parts were easier to glue up using the flattened spoon and the brown glue than the white glue in bottles...so new builders often tried to do it that way, instead of using the extra time required to clean up after a white glue squeeze-out...or they may have squeezed water from a too wet paper towel up into the joint when cleaning up the squeeze-out from brown glue...making the glue joint weaken! I learned pretty quickly about clean up for squeeze-out for brown glue...I normally let the squeeze-out set up to a fudge-like consistency, then scraped it up with a sharpened chisel, lightly wiping up any excess with a MOIST paper towel instead of one soaking wet!! ------------------ If you want to send a private message, or have already done so, be aware I have not as yet been able to retrieve them. Send e-maill instead, please...just note Klipsch forum in the heading so it doesn't get deleted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipschguy Posted May 23, 2002 Share Posted May 23, 2002 HDBR, Any thoughts on polyurethane glues (like ProBond or Gorilla glue)? The joints I've glued with it seem ridiculously strong. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 30, 2002 Share Posted May 30, 2002 i can't believe i just read this whole thread my head hurts oh gawd -- it's the damn glue -- I gotta get outta here ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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