ClaudeJ1 Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 See my new Avatar. Went from Twin tweeters, upper mid, midbass horns to just new driver for the same tweeter horn lens (DE-10 to DE-250, both B&C), from JBL 2360A/2446J with Peavey MB-1 Midbass (fabulous BTW), to just a Klipsch 402 and 1133 driver crossing at about 375 hz.. Pulled a bunch of parts off my passive Xover, went from bi amp to single amp and I'm using just 2 Capacitors..........one for the K1133 and one for the DE250. The mass rolloff in the bass horn's K33 blends into the Xover up to the K402/1133, with a mass rolloff at 4K-7K range feeding into the DE250/ME-10 super tweet. Then I just run Auto Speaker setup with my AUDYSSEY equipped receiver and that's it. Best sound I have ever had in 35 plus years. I'm re-listening to all my best CD's, Blue Ray's and DVD's (movies and concerts) in disbelief. The depth and solidity of the image, the air and ambience of all the instruments, the precise location, the super crisp transient response, the bass definition in concert with my coffee table Tapped Horn Sub is unreal..............totally effortless and only about 0.2 watts of power most of the time...........I could go on and on. My stack went from 7 ft. tall with corner horns, to 6 ft. with the prior setup, down to 5 ft. with the current one. I'm done for quite a while now. Life is good right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted February 27, 2012 Author Share Posted February 27, 2012 FYI, for about 30 years, I had the same setup as PWK did in his home: 2 Khorns with false corners and a resistor box feeding a mono signal to a center channel La Scala (Belle in his case). What I have now is WAY better than that. Long live short bass horns with long subwoofer horns coupled to 2" throat midranges and a super tweeter that allow me to thumb my nose at Berrilium driver that cost 10X more than my setup. HAH!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted February 27, 2012 Author Share Posted February 27, 2012 If you look at the Avatar, isn't it funny to think the midrange horn face is larger than the bass horn?? LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted February 27, 2012 Moderators Share Posted February 27, 2012 If you look at the Avatar, isn't it funny to think the midrange horn face is larger than the bass horn?? LOL But it should be, PWK said that's where we live. [] It's a big horn but I still couldn't fit, but i don't have to be worried about being buried in one of the MWM bins either, they wouldn't part with one. [Y] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted February 27, 2012 Moderators Share Posted February 27, 2012 I'm done for quite a while now. Life is good right now. Exactly how I feel, you have to admit it's a great design, I don't care what anyone says. [Y] Just for fun about a week ago I moved the 402 horn to the back side of the MWM and put my diy LaScala top in it's place just to compare. It had been a long time and I just wanted to hear the difference again for reference. After a couple of days I had to switch it back, it reminded me why I liked the 402 so much. The 401 horn and Bob's tweeters with new AA crossovers sounded good. The big difference was after switching back to the 402 horn was the sound was not directed at me straight from the horns. A huge open sound, that big 402 horn just disappears and the sound is much more natural, clearer without sounding all blended together and sounding like it's forced through a much smaller sounding opening. You could close your eyes and not point directly to the 402 if you didn't know where they were already. The way I have it set up I can just press a button and turn on the forte ll's to compare and I always thought it was the forte's making that much difference, that's why I wanted to bring in the LaScala tops being they were the biggest horn of the Klipsch horns. Not even close by a long shot, I am spoiled/ruined. When I listen to other Klipsch here, the forte's or the Heresy's 1's or 11's and even the Cornwall lll's and LaScala clones they really sound great. Just don't compare them to the 402 horns in the same room, for your own good, you will be ruined. I say this with all due respect to Klipsch and PWK and I have not heard a Klipsch design I couldn't live with but I am not going to lie either. Congratulations Claude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 If you look at the Avatar, isn't it funny to think the midrange horn face is larger than the bass horn?? LOLBut it should be, PWK said thet's where we live. This reminds me of pre-renaissance painting techniques before perspective drawing techniques of Brunelleschi were made widely known. Paintings represented the importance of their human and spiritual figures by the size of the objects in the picture relative to each other, regardless of distance from the observer. This is true particularly of religious-themed pre-renaissance paintings that hang in cathedrals across Europe. Maybe we should design speakers by the same logic? [6] [] Chris [A] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted February 27, 2012 Author Share Posted February 27, 2012 If you look at the Avatar, isn't it funny to think the midrange horn face is larger than the bass horn?? LOL But it should be, PWK said that's where we live. It's a big horn but I still couldn't fit, but i don't have to be worried about being buried in one of the MWM bins either, they wouldn't part with one. Thanks for the great posts, Eldon. Much appreciated. I just got done measuring and I have a huge 40 Hz. hole that I didn't have before. My Audyssey is making use of the Tapped Horn more than I like, so looks like I will have to either go back to bi-amping the FH-1's (most likeley) or use L-pads on the mids and tweets (not likely). I have the components to do either. Of course we know the woofer section is always the least efficient......in this case, about 4-5 db in my room, so I will have to compensate with more power...........meaning, I will have to boost the drive about 1/10th of a watt on the "cheap Scalas" instead of 1/100th of a watt I'm using now on the whole stack. LOL. But that K402 definitely makes the system. Hey what you, I, JC, Christie, and Mark learned over 4 years ago is "the bigger the horn, the better the horn." eh?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted February 27, 2012 Moderators Share Posted February 27, 2012 Hey what you, I, JC, Christie, and Mark learned over 4 years ago is "the bigger the horn, the better the horn." eh?? I think your right, I hate when people say we wanted these because there the biggest or because they can get loud. It has nothing to do with either, it how they sound, we RARELY listen loud. BUT now we always listen to a huge open sound never sounding strained or held back in any way. To me the size of the speakers is directly related to the size of the sound, that big live sound is tough to get from a smaller speaker. Smaller speakers can have a great sound but they can not sound this big. It's hard to describe what I hear, so I use the word big because it seems to fit best. It's like the music is coming from that whole side of the room not the speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted February 27, 2012 Author Share Posted February 27, 2012 I just call it effortless transient response AND extremely low distortion. My friend's Open Baffle system with choice electronics and Bryston Amps sounds very good. It curves flat as can be from 40 Hz. to 20Khz. But when it's turned up to about 90 db level, I can hear a bit of distortion, which is totally absent from my setup. However his speakers totally disappear as the imaging is unreal. He heard my last setup (not this one yet) and he said it sounded great. Two completely different ways to move air, but both good. The spoiler for me was having ALL horns in my system for the last 35 years, starting with my first pair or Birch Klipschorns with a LaScala in the middle with PWK's mono resistor box feeding the center channel..............the original strereo from Bell Labs in 1933. Big Horns RULE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete H Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 It's great to hear when someone is completely happy with their system and to make the statement that you're done for a while speaks volumes. Congratulations on your system and some day I'll get to hear a 402 and understand what you're all talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Ok Claude.... when are you going to post a picture? I know you're a photo-newby, I'd be happy to help you understand some of the basics of a point & shoot... [A] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted February 27, 2012 Author Share Posted February 27, 2012 What my Avatar not fugly enough?? Ok Claude.... when are you going to post a picture? I know you're a photo-newby, I'd be happy to help you understand some of the basics of a point & shoot... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted February 27, 2012 Author Share Posted February 27, 2012 I should add that I just went back to bi-amping and added a choke for the FH-1 woofer section. I may change the value of the choke, but I had to add gain to the bottom to match up the 108-110 db efficient top end. The resulted in Audyssey choosing a lower rolloff point into the sub and lowering the sub output by 0.5 db. Just got done listening to all my test recordings again. This is a good combo in my small basement room. I still miss my MWMs but now I can walk into the bathroom or laundry room without having to climb over a woofer section since the "big wood" is now a coffee table TH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DizRotus Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 It's my recollection that Northville is in the "Detroit area." In any event, I wouldn't say no to an opportunity to hear the 402s in person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted February 28, 2012 Moderators Share Posted February 28, 2012 I know you're a photo-newby, Now that's funny. [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 It's great to hear when someone is completely happy with their system and to make the statement that you're done for a while speaks volumes. Congratulations on your system and some day I'll get to hear a 402 and understand what you're all talking about. Let's just say that I got lucky with these broken horns that are still being repaired as we speak (Epoxy for plastics). They are not perfect, but it was all I coul afford at this time. Klipsch makes their own mid driver for this horn, in either a 2-way (1132 drivers) or 3-way (1133 drivers) setup. I prefer 3-way, so I also can't say enough good things about the B&C DE-250 driver, which is 4 times the price of my DE-10's, but a tiny bit better at the top end. They are still cheaper than a pair of TAD 2001 Beryliums, which are 10X again more money for, supposedly, indistinguishable sound as a super tweeter. I know B&C is considered a good driver company by Klipsch because all their Theater Speakers used them in the late 90's and early 2000. Now they are using their own branded clones of the B&C as a tweeter on the K-510 horn, and also for a 2-way on the K-402. Tom Danley uses DE-250 in his Synergy horns while Earl Geddes uses the same driver in his Summa line of speakers with the Oblate Spheroid Waveguide. I was not interested in a 2-way, as I prefer the better dispersion of a smaller throat horn for the highs as opposed to using Shelving EQ (+12 db @ 12 Khz. with a knee at 3,500 Hz.). The system response is NOT flat, but it fits nicely into a +/- 4 db envelope after Aydyssey EQ's for the drivers AND the room together at my sweet spot. My stack is now only about 5 ft. from 7 and 6 respectively, and the sound is better than ever. My last setup was a VERY tough act to follow, for sure, but I wanted to downsize without compromising too much. The TH sub allowed me to use smaller bass horns in the corner, so the domino effect just happened. I'm very pleased that when I measured the 1133 drivers, they went all the way down to 300 Hz. (with titanium diaphragms no less, NOT Phenolic!!). They did so on the K-402 as well as a JBL flat front 2380a. So I gave up very little midbass definition when I removed the fantastic Peavey MB-1 horn I have lived with for a few years. That horn is better used with MWMs bins in my experience with those also (with double and single bins per channel, no less). So I added a choke on the FH-1 section and went to a passive bi-amping because the sensitivity there is about 6 db less than the mid and tweet sections. FYI the bass (not sub bass) is being driven by a $26.00 (you read right) Lepai 20 watt/ch. mini amplifier with tone controls bypassed. The transient impact is not to be believed with this new stack. Sonic heaven is here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 we RARELY listen loud. BUT now we always listen to a huge open sound never sounding strained or held back in any way. To me the size of the speakers is directly related to the size of the sound, that big live sound is tough to get from a smaller speaker. Smaller speakers can have a great sound but they can not sound this big. Exactly. I don't listn loud either, ususally between 75-88 db as measure by the digital Radio Shack meter on slow setting. The less a driver moves, the less distortion it produces. At full output, the Khorn was measured at about 1/16th inch excusrsion. If you think about the motors in your MWMs, they move less than half that much because of mutual coupling of the horns. If you think about it, the MCM was designed for PA before it was used in theaters. So if you want the sound of live band, why not put the music through the same speakers for yourself with a more refined top end also. Play on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted February 28, 2012 Moderators Share Posted February 28, 2012 At full output, the Khorn was measured at about 1/16th inch excusrsion. If you think about the motors in your MWMs, they move less than half that much because of mutual coupling of the horns. I was thinking about that the other night while playing at about 80-90 db. I bet you couldn't even see the cone move which is pretty amazing considering the sound they put out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RRFL Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 At full output, the Khorn was measured at about 1/16th inch excusrsion. If you think about the motors in your MWMs, they move less than half that much because of mutual coupling of the horns. I was thinking about that the other night while playing at about 80-90 db. I bet you couldn't even see the cone move which is pretty amazing considering the sound they put out. That is exactly the benefit as the result is as close as you can get to exactly real. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 That is exactly the benefit as the result is as close as you can get to exactly real. Since we all know things swirl backwards down under.... I wonder if the cones have to move in reverse in order to get proper sound out of them? [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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