Need a new receiver

[dtel]

Of course I would hear more if I turned the Xover on the subs up but you have to remember, I have my mains set to FULL so they are playing down to 29Hz.

Here is my take on it (again, I in no way consider myself an audiophile, music buff etc....just merely an enthusiast at best). I want my 15" subs to do what they do best...dig down deep and hit the low octaves. Another reason I do not set my xover on my subs to 120Hz is the higher frequencies they play, the more localized they become. IMO, one of the goals for your sub is to calibrate it to where the only time you know it's on, is when you turn it off. In other words...you want it to blend seamlessly with your system in such a way that it does not draw attention to itself.

I'm curious if anyone else sets their receiver or pre/pro's xover to 120Hz? Somehow I believe this is not the norm (but I could be wrong).

That's what I was thinking also, plus I wouldn't want two speakers reproducing the same sounds.

Kind of why I set them all to small, to me it just sounded less muddy especially in the bass and mid-bass. DrWho told me to try that for a year before I got over setting them to small, but he was right it just sounded better.

I don't know I, that's why I read here, what I have learned here has improved our Ht and especially 2 Ch more than I would have ever on my own. [Y]

[Youthman]

YES your not alone, and thanks everyone.

Count me in too. I learn something new everyday.

I just did some Googling...

Check out these two articles:

Basic Subwoofer Setup Guide NOT for Dummies

Setting hte Subwoofer / LFE Crossover For Best Performance

Granted, this is only one source and one person's opinion, but his advice is what I've ever read.

Here are some points he makes that I agree with...

We highly recommend experimenting with the variable Bass Management / Crossover settings in your receiver / processor
to arrive at the best setting possible for the marriage between your
loudspeakers and subwoofer, especially if you are using quality "large"
tower type speakers with inherently good bass extension. You will find
the addition of a sub is much more useful as a compliment to your main
speakers, producing deep, non-directional bass tones.

Keep in mind that setting the LFE too high can allow your sub to
play up to almost 100Hz, which can cause a bass bump between your main
speakers and sub; increasing the chances of:

1. 
   
   Unwanted and unnatural sounding standing bass waves.
2. 
   
   Identification of the subwoofer as a point source rather than a discrete member.
3. 
   
   Excessive bass boom.

[Youthman]

what I have learned here has improved our Ht and especially 2 Ch more than I would have ever on my own.

No doubt! That's what makes this forum so great. I think it's great we can share our thoughts, views, opinions, learn together, and sometimes even disagree with each other.

[ivanhurd]

I could be getting all backwards here...you are correct in saying that the mains will still play down to 60, so basically the bass should be 'doubling up' from 120 hz(where your sub starts) down to 60hz(where your mains end) and then the sub will take everything below that. So I believe I could have been incorrect before in saying that you could be missing some of the sounds if your sub's crossover is too low, you just aren't going to get the power and bigger rumble in the range that isn't going to your sub. So in Youthman's case, he is missing out on the power his sub could be putting out between 50-120hz probably missing out on a more dynamic sound from them. If your mains have their own big subs, you probably aren't going to be missing out on as much, but for my RF-82 IIs, they may go down to 33hz, but also aren't going to rumble at 80hz like a sub will. I hope I'm making sense, and I may be contradicting myself a bit, but I'm just trying to recall what I had read. There was a big discussion about this on the AVS forum, but I don't remember which thread and I think there were some different view points which is probably why I may be giving contradicting information. It's possible it was in the Audyssey thread where people were discussing where to adjust crossover points after running the program.

[ivanhurd]

With your logic, why not set all your speakers to 120Hz or even to FULL range since you will hear more from them that way?

The point of crossovers is to find the point where your speakers blend together the best. If you set everything to 120hz, then you will actually miss out on some frequencies because crossovers aren't perfect and you will get something like the pic below. If you put them all to full range, your AVR is just going to send everything to every speaker so they will end up getting frequencies they may not be designed to handle causing clipping and just being less efficient.

[dtel]

you just aren't going to get the power and bigger rumble in the range that isn't going to your sub.

Setting like that you probably will get more rumble and power but I would GUESS it is what you should be avoiding, somewhat like it's not a good idea to run 2 sets of mains or 2 centers, one clean reproduction of a frequency should do it if the speaker can do it.

Just what I thought, could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time.

[dtel]

You are supposed to have an overlap, but not to the point where either go any further into the other than necessary.

Our 2 Ch has a bi-amped setup with an active crossover 2 way design, how steep the crossover is set can have something to do with where you have to cross, you don't want either speaker covering what the other does, it does not help at all. The steeper crossover sounds best, less overlap into each other.

I would think Ht is the same, same reasons why you wouldn't want 2 drivers or speakers (speakers or subs) reproducing the same sounds any more than needed.

[ivanhurd]

YES your not alone, and thanks everyone.

Count me in too. I learn something new everyday.

I just did some Googling...

Check out these two articles:

Basic Subwoofer Setup Guide NOT for Dummies

Setting hte Subwoofer / LFE Crossover For Best Performance

Granted, this is only one source and one person's opinion, but his advice is what I've ever read.

Here are some points he makes that I agree with...

We highly recommend experimenting with the variable Bass Management / Crossover settings in your receiver / processor

to arrive at the best setting possible for the marriage between your

loudspeakers and subwoofer, especially if you are using quality "large"

tower type speakers with inherently good bass extension. You will find

the addition of a sub is much more useful as a compliment to your main

speakers, producing deep, non-directional bass tones.

Keep in mind that setting the LFE too high can allow your sub to

play up to almost 100Hz, which can cause a bass bump between your main

speakers and sub; increasing the chances of:

1. Unwanted and unnatural sounding standing bass waves.

2. Identification of the subwoofer as a point source rather than a discrete member.

3. Excessive bass boom.

I can see where you are coming from, and I don't disagree. Again, it comes down to preference, and it appears that you have found yours. It just gives people more things to try out and see if they like how it sounds. I personally really can't tell much of a difference when I have my main speakers on full or 60 or 80 for that matter...My critical listening is a bit out of practice...

[Youthman]

Setting like that you probably will get more rumble and power but I would GUESS it is what you should be avoiding

I agree. I got plenty of rumble (bass reproduction) from my Velodyne F1500. Plenty of rumble (bass reproduction) from my RF-83's. So why did I upgrade to the HGS15 and then add a second HGS15? To me, it's not about rumble, it's about making my neighbors jealous. Haha.....just kidding...just kidding. Actually, my neighbors have no interest in speakers. Just trying to keep the mood light here. [] As I was saying, to me, it's not about adding more rumble, it's about quality, creating a system that blends very well with together and providing smooth bass response throughout the room without drawing attention to my subs. I'm not saying I have actually acheived this because I'm not much of a "tweaker" and do not have what I consider a "critical ear". So by no means do I consider myself the "know it all" here. Just stating my opinion, my experience with my own system and what I have read online.

[ivanhurd]

You are supposed to have an overlap, but not to the point where either go any further into the other than necessary.

I completely agree. Just for an FYI, THX recommends everything at 80hz and sub at 120hz.

[Youthman]

It just gives people more things to try out and see if they like how it sounds.

Totally agree there. By all means, try out 120Hz. There may be some that like that sound. To my ears, it just sounded too boomy and definitely made my sub localized (ability to hear where the sub is located). The way I have mine setup, when the big explosions happen, you feel it but you don't look at the sub because you don't hear where it is coming from. When you increase the sub xover, you are able to locate the sub much more easily with your ears which isn't the goal I'm looking for.

Great discussion guys! Seriously. 16 pages and no one has cussed, left the forum or threatenened to go back to their BOSE system. []

[ivanhurd]

Setting like that you probably will get more rumble and power but I would GUESS it is what you should be avoiding,

It just depends on what you like I suppose. Basically, the sub is designed to handle all of those low notes. I agree that some of the bigger mains can handle the low notes, but not in the same way that a designated sub does. In an *HT* setup, the sub is 'supposed' to handle the LFE, not the mains. Some people don't like this idea because they are thinking, "why the heck do I have RF-7IIs with big ol speakers in them if I don't utilize them???" Those are for 2 channel music =^)

[Youthman]

You are supposed to have an overlap, but not to the point where either go any further into the other than necessary.

I completely agree. Just for an FYI, THX recommends everything at 80hz and sub at 120hz.

Ivan, even in that case, you still would not be "overlap". With the receiver or pre/pro set at 80Hz and the sub at 120Hz, the sub is still ONLY going to play 80Hz and below due to the receiver or pre/pro sending only 80Hz and below to the sub. Not sure if or how that applies to LFE in a movie though. If the xover on the receiver is at 80Hz and the sub is at 120Hz and the LFE channel wants to send a 100Hz frequency to the sub, does the receiver route the >80Hz to the mains or does the sub end up playing the 100Hz frequency because it is in the LFE channel? My head hurts....I'm headed to bed and will catch up with this thread tomorrow. Haha

[ivanhurd]

There may be some that like that sound. To my ears, it just sounded too boomy

It could have been because you still had your mains set to full (?), so there was just too much overlap going on such as the guy suggested in the articles you posted previously. I dunno tho, different strokes as they say =^) I do like how mine is set up and I think it blends together nicely. To anybody out there, It's worth a shot as you can always go back to how it was set up previously =^)

[joshjp]

So how do you have it setup for MUSIC?.

[ivanhurd]

Ivan, even in that case, you still would not be "overlap". With the receiver or pre/pro set at 80Hz and the sub at 120Hz, the sub is still ONLY going to play 80Hz and below due to the receiver or pre/pro sending only 80Hz and below to the sub. Not sure if or how that applies to LFE in a movie though. If the xover on the receiver is at 80Hz and the sub is at 120Hz and the LFE channel wants to send a 100Hz frequency to the sub, does the receiver route the >80Hz to the mains or does the sub end up playing the 100Hz frequency because it is in the LFE channel? My head hurts....I'm headed to bed and will catch up with this thread tomorrow. Haha

The sub will still play everything from 80-120 and the mains will still play down to 80hz. It should look something like the pic below. As you can see in the sweet diagram (=^P) the amount of shared frequencies is quite low. The mains will roll off into the sub and vice versa. This is where you get the 'blend'. The hard part is finding the sweet spot that sounds the best to you in your room, but according to THX, this point should be it or at least the best starting point.

[ivanhurd]

So how do you have it setup for MUSIC?.

The settings I have now seem to work well for me in both areas so I haven't messed with it that much. Music is going to be a different beast because there isn't that dedicated LFE channel, so the crossover points aren't necessarily going to be the same as with HT. Again, it's really going to come down to your preference but from what I've read when it comes to music, setting the crossover lower on the sub will probably be better for most. I would probably start with 60 on mains, 80 for sub and go from there. I just don't listen to music much on my HT, so I really haven't experimented with the settings in those regards...but when I do listen to music, I set my AVR to stereo.

[joshjp]

I might have to mess with some settings this weekend, but it sucks that my receiver only has 50Hz 80Hz and so on, and it was they "Flag Ship" of the last years VSX series.

[ivanhurd]

Let us know if you stumble upon anything =^) And Youthman, I hope I didn't offend you at all. I was not saying that your setup was 'wrong' by any means. Just from what I have read it's possible that you may be missing out on some of what your subs can do. If you've already tried it the other way and didn't find it to your liking then that's just how it is, because in the end all that matters is how it sounds to you =^)

[joshjp]

Allright i will, but it will be this weekend, plus on my sub theres no indicator for 120Hz, it has 150Hz and 40Hz.