Driver Comparison for the K 402 Horn

[ClaudeJ1]

Mike,

In audio, I don't particularily think there is an absolute right and wrong...Sure there are basic guidlines, but I don't think that any one thing is definate. It all relates to what is right for the Individual and His/Her Ears. Gather as much knowledge as you can and try your best to make Informed decisions...How can you go wrong with that?

I have similar philosophy summarized as: "Everyone is entitled to their own ridiculous opinion." LOL.

[ClaudeJ1]

On the other hand: "You can't make what you can't measure.'.................Dr. Irving Gardner............via Paul W. Klipsch.

I think we ALL need to measure AND listen. Then we can draw our own personal correlation between the two. No speaker can be perfectly flat in a real room.

[babadono]

heli001,

Will your friend in Burbank be wanting to get rid (sell) the TADs?

babadono

[Panacea Engineering]

Baba,

I'm sure that he will have them on eBay in several weeks. Just do an alert to yourself for TAD's and they will show up. There's a pair of 4001's listed now.

[mark1101]

When I look down the throat of my 402s I can barely tell there is any angle at all between the driver and horn. It almost looks like a straight tube although we know that 10 degree angle is present. It's a pretty smooth transition and quite a long looking adaptor.

[djk]

""Everyone is entitled to their own ridiculous opinion."

While I may think that, I usually try and make people aware of the trade-offs involved and let them make their own (hopefully now better informed) compromises (choices).

I choose to use a horn that has true constant-directivity up to 16Khz, that barely narrows at 20Khz (it has vanes in the throat to achieve this performance).

The Electro-Voice® HP640 is a wide-range, flat-front, constant-directivity, high-frequency horn. With the HP640, a horizontal dispersion angle is controlled over a frequency range of 500 Hz to 20 kHz, and the vertical angle is controlled from 1.5 kHz to 20 kHz, both with unusual precision and adherence to the intended angle. Furthermore, excellent loading is maintained to a low frequency of 500 Hz.
The flat-front design makes the HP640 suitable for all modern boxed and clustered systems. A special vaned waveguide throat detail gives the HP640 unusually uniform directivity control in the top octaves when compared to similar 2-inch-throat horn designs.

Architects’ and Engineers’ Specifications

The horn shall be of the constant-directivity type. It shall produce a horizontal beamwidth (6-dB-down angle) of 60 degrees, deviating no more than 20 degrees from this angle over the frequency range of 500 to 20,000 Hz. It shall produce a vertical beamwidth of 40 degrees, deviating no more than 10 degrees from this angle over the frequency range of 1,500 to 20,000 Hz. In addition, it shall provide useful acoustic loading at all frequencies above 500 Hz.

This horn actually has slightly better horizontal dispersion at 20Khz than it does in the 630hz~1Khz region. The pattern does flip below 1Khz because of the relatively short vertical dimension of the horn’s mouth, it opens up to 80°vertical at 800hz. In practice, when crossed with a LR24 the pattern at the crossover point will typically be half what is shown on the spec sheet (or about 40° at 800hz) with a typical woofer section.

This horn is so smooth off-axis that it is quite listenable out to an included angle of 90°, even though it is nominally a 60° horn.

[Panacea Engineering]

Dennis,

Are you suggesting that the EV HP 640 is a better Horn, than the K 402, for two way, on top of Jubilees?

I am not certain as to what I can personally hear between 16K and 20K Hz. I doubt that there is much there, for these OLD ears, as I have abused them terribly, in my younger days at the Drag Strip. Standing between two Fuel Dragsters on the Starting Line for twelve years, with just a set of David Clark Headphones on, definately had it's affects.

W. C.

[djk]

"Are you suggesting that the EV HP 640 is a better Horn, than the K 402, for two way, on top of Jubilees?"

Not having heard the K402 I can't make that claim.

I can say that the HP640 is a great horn for a reasonable price.

This horn was designed for motion
picture theater sound systems and TAD components.
Dispersion is 80 degrees horizontal by 40 degrees vertical. Recommended low cut-off is 600Hz.

A nice horn from Bill Woods that I would like to hear (don't ask the price).

"I am not certain as to what I can personally hear between 16K and 20K Hz. I doubt that there is much there, for these OLD ears"

I can't hear much above 13Khz at low levels, but I can tell when a system doesn't go above there. It may be some sort of noise-modulation or distortion issue., I'm not sure.

[Panacea Engineering]

Dennis,

I am very familiar with Bill Woods' Horns and yes, he is VERY proud of them. To that end, this thread is purely about the comparison of the K 402 and different drivers to the Martinelli's with the Beyma CP 750ND, which is personally the finest sounding Horn that I have ever heard. As soon as I receive the Martin Adapters, we will start the testing. While I am sure that there are many capable Horns out there, for a two way set up, this thread is just about two and I do not plan to introduce or compare any more Horns, at this time.

[ClaudeJ1]

This horn is so smooth off-axis that it is quite listenable out to an included angle of 90°, even though it is nominally a 60° horn.

I have 3 of them for sale. I didn't have the means to test when I had them hooked up to my MWM stack a few years ago. I remember then sounding pretty good, but I didn't have the means of properly crossing them then. Maybe I should keep one for a center channel in my HT setup.......you got me thinking.

As far as the quote you attributed to me, it was meant to be funny, and I hope it was.

[ClaudeJ1]

Dennis,

I am very familiar with Bill Woods' Horns and yes, he is VERY proud of them. To that end, this thread is purely about the comparison of the K 402 and different drivers to the Martinelli's with the Beyma CP 750ND, which is personally the finest sounding Horn that I have ever heard. As soon as I receive the Martin Adapters, we will start the testing. While I am sure that there are many capable Horns out there, for a two way set up, this thread is just about two and I do not plan to introduce or compare any more Horns, at this time.

Well I heard that horn when I was at your place and it is a very fine sounding horn from 800 Hz. on up, no question. However, the 402 will relieve the the duties of the octave below that from the Jube's, and put is right into the throat of a straight axis horn from a nearly mass-less diaphragm as opposed to a pair of woofers feeding a folded labyrinth. Roy said the compression driver wins this contest every time and he wasn't even talking about a TAD, which is the best of the best. The Jube is best from 50-500 hz. and rolls off at both ends without EQ.

[mark1101]

WC,

You ought to get a pair of those little HP horns and make it a horn shootout. The importance of the information to this forum is great. Here we have a poster seemingly incinuating those small HP horns are potentially competitive with a 402. Why not find out the truth and let us know your thoughts.

[Panacea Engineering]

Mark,

I will be more than happy to TEST anything that YOU or any other Forum member would like to send. I checked and "Those Little HP Horns" do not appear to be available for purchase, at the present time. Purchasing the TAD's and K 402's, alone was pretty substantial, so at this point, I am NOT going to purchase anything else to test, but feel free to send me a PM or email and I will be more than glad to supply MY shipping address. We will TEST whatever comes here in search of the TRVTH.......as someone else phrases it.....[]

W. C.

[ClaudeJ1]

Mark,

I will be more than happy to TEST anything that YOU or any other Forum member would like to send. I checked and "Those Little HP Horns" do not appear to be available for purchase, at the present time. Purchasing the TAD's and K 402's, alone was pretty substantial, so at this point, I am NOT going to purchase anything else to test, but feel free to send me a PM or email and I will be more than glad to supply MY shipping address. We will TEST whatever comes here in search of the TRVTH.......as someone else phrases it.....

W. C.

The HP horns are not that small. they are bigger than your Martinelli's and smaller than the 402. I have a pair if you are interested. I'm not interested in testing them against the 402, even though I own them. I quite happy with the 402 and the EV's will be on Ebay soon.

[ClaudeJ1]

I should add that the 402's, with the Klipsch K1133 driver, roll off at 320 Hz., which is where I cross. The EV 640's roll off at 500. they are a good horn, but they don't go low enough for me and I'm using a QSC horn with the excellent DE-250 driver for a tweeter..........I'm very happy with the sound, best I've ever had.

I know conventional wisdom says I shouldn't cross them lower than 400 Hz., but I measured about 10-20 MilliWatts of power reaching the mid and tweeter from my amp, so not worries, since I only listen at 85 db nominal or less. Those drivers will NEVER see 1 W of power........neither will the woofer for that matter and it can handle 200.

[ClaudeJ1]

So, in the interest of keeping with this thread and W.C.'s stated goal, I think he should stick with the plan. There's enough of an "apples and oranges" situation since he's testing 5 variables at once: 2 different drivers on 2 different horns with 2 different types of Xovers with different 2 Xover points and 2 different slopes.

Let's not add any more "fruit" to the bowl, I say.

[Panacea Engineering]

Claude,

It is actually going to be three different drivers on the K 402. We had not planned on putting the TAD's on the Martinelli's at all, as I can not see an advantage of doing that. The actual test is supposed to be: To test the K 402 against the Martinelli with the Beyma CP 750ND Driver, on a Jubilee Base Bin and to see if the K 402 sounded better to ME. We have NO plans of doing charts or graphs on anything. I am willing to compronise and use the DX 38, as an electronic crossover for the K 402's so that I can match what everyone else has and are using on the Jubilee Base Bin. Here is the test vehicle for the K 402's, it is a KPT-KHJ-LF Jubilee Cinema Base Bin with the K 402 on top.

[Panacea Engineering]

Here is the total package that we are going to test, you can see the little Martinelli hiding in the background. I mean little in comparison to the K 402.....I will be testing it in the place of the Golden Jube that is in the corner now.

[mark1101]

You pretty much already performed the test by taking that picture. [6]

That little Martinelli is going to wind up in the same place as the wooden horn PWK is seen with in his famous Jub photo. Sold! []

I hope I didn't taint the testing.

[ClaudeJ1]

You pretty much already performed the test by taking that picture.

That little Martinelli is going to wind up in the same place as the wooden horn PWK is seen with in his famous Jub photo. Sold!

I hope I didn't taint the testing.

I've been saying the same, Mark. Once he hears the 402, there's no going back, especially with Roy's setting on the EV xover. I'm sure you and I would put a lot of cash down on that bet. LOL.