The Dude Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 First off I might not even know what I am asking(except that equing would be like turning up the frequencies between 400-500hz). Second this is mainly for HT purpose though I do like my music. Now the reason I ask, Is I have read that the Khorn struggles about 400hz. I am using the 511b horn with the k-55v, I knowing that the 511b horn only goes down to 500hz. Maybe its not necessary, maybe its bugging me. If I can what does it take. All so I am running a Lascala with the same configuration same horn same driver same crossover(which is the b&k 4500) from what I have read it goes over 400hz so is this still a problem. Thanks Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 khorn bass bins dive pretty bad after about 375 hz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 The KHorn LF is good to 500Hz and can definitly benefit from EQ. Heyser showed in some of his research papers how the KHorn could benefit from EQ. Also note that the AK-4 has EQing and steeper slopes than past networks for the LF and the AK-4 IMO offers better clarity with a since of more dynamic impact. I will say if you have issues around the 500Hz region between the blending of the Khorn LF and 511b you should perceive it on recordings with good vocals. miketn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 the black line of the graph is for the khorn and it shows the same nose dive at 350hz that the other graph shows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 the black line of the graph is for the khorn and it shows the same nose dive at 350hz that the other graph shows. you would need 37db of EQ'ing just to level out the nose dive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted August 24, 2012 Author Share Posted August 24, 2012 So since these readings are taken in a different environment then my room. It would be best for me to take some readings in my room to see were I have issues. Then boost the frequencies that need be. Would any of the eq's or active cross overs out there work, such as the minidsp, crown xti 1000, or even one of the Berhingers or EVs everyone uses. Maybe I should start with taking some measurements, any recommedation how to do this. Could I use my laptop and a caliberated mic with the right program. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBryan Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 From what I've read (many moons ago, BTW), the bass bin has a hard time reaching beyond 350Hz and actually begins to distort above 200Hz or so. While it may be able to develop frequencies above 350Hz, they will be very attenuated and distorted and adding gain to the upper frequencies will emphasize the distortion...not a good thing IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tromprof Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 So since these readings are taken in a different environment then my room. It would be best for me to take some readings in my room to see were I have issues. Then boost the frequencies that need be. Would any of the eq's or active cross overs out there work, such as the minidsp, crown xti 1000, or even one of the Berhingers or EVs everyone uses. Maybe I should start with taking some measurements, any recommedation how to do this. Could I use my laptop and a caliberated mic with the right program. Thanks The room you have them in will make a huge difference. I had to do quite a bit of EQing on my k-horns when I had them in my living room, and do none now they are in the basement. When I moved them to the basement, before even listening to them I hooked up my Behringer and ran the RTA assuming I would be EQing them similarly to the way they were set up upstairs. Instead the response was flat, no EQ needed. [] I like the Behringer DEQ2496 units because they can be run between my digital source and the DAC without any conversion to analog until the DAC, and thus to my ears anyway, is totally transparent. I do have one of these units for sale in the garage sell section so it is a bit of a shameless plug, but I do think they are great units and have a second one in my current living room setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 From what I've read (many moons ago, BTW), the bass bin has a hard time reaching beyond 350Hz and actually begins to distort above 200Hz or so. While it may be able to develop frequencies above 350Hz, they will be very attenuated and distorted and adding gain to the upper frequencies will emphasize the distortion...not a good thing IMO. ditto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted August 24, 2012 Author Share Posted August 24, 2012 From what I've read (many moons ago, BTW), the bass bin has a hard time reaching beyond 350Hz and actually begins to distort above 200Hz or so. While it may be able to develop frequencies above 350Hz, they will be very attenuated and distorted and adding gain to the upper frequencies will emphasize the distortion...not a good thing IMO. ditto So I take it you guys wouldn't recomend it. Which brings me to another question how low does the k400 go, if it does go down only go to 400 hz. Then were the lacking frequencies not a concern, if so then should I not be concerned about the altec 511b not going low enough. I guess I do have a few things I could play with to see how it sounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 Geeze guys, I am reading this differently. Take a close look at the chart. If it is accurate, it looks more like there is a 2 to 3 db hump between 225 and 325 hz. A 3 db cut at 275 hz may smooth things out on this graph. At 350 HZ the measurement is 113 db, with the same measurement at 100 hz and 140 hz. At 400 hz it is measuring 114 db and drops to about 109 db at 500 hz. It is also at 109db at 90 hz and steadily drops off from there to about 103 db at 55 hz then up to 107 db at 40 hz and then drops like a rock. Is it that the 400 to 500 HZ region is more critical than the sub 100 hz region? To the OP, look up some old threads. Before AL K started with the Tractrix horns, he was advocating the 511B for the K horn and others as an upgrade to the K400. If I remember correctly, the K55 is also not really supposed to go down to 400HZ but it works as implemented, and Al was able to use the Altec 511B down below 500 HZ. Not perfect but many tried it and it should work fine. Read some old threads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 the black line of the graph is for the khorn and it shows the same nose dive at 350hz that the other graph shows. you would need 37db of EQ'ing just to level out the nose dive. Look at the graph level/frequency again unless you are trying to reach much higher than 500Hz there is no requirement close to 37db of boost. miketn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzannucci Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 I thought based on ALK's testing many moons ago, the 511 can go down to 400hz without too much of a problem. So in room response may not be as bad as suspected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 Geeze guys, I am reading this differently. Take a close look at the chart. If it is accurate, it looks more like there is a 2 to 3 db hump between 225 and 325 hz. A 3 db cut at 275 hz may smooth things out on this graph. At 350 HZ the measurement is 113 db, with the same measurement at 100 hz and 140 hz. At 400 hz it is measuring 114 db and drops to about 109 db at 500 hz. It is also at 109db at 90 hz and steadily drops off from there to about 103 db at 55 hz then up to 107 db at 40 hz and then drops like a rock. Is it that the 400 to 500 HZ region is more critical than the sub 100 hz region? To the OP, look up some old threads. Before AL K started with the Tractrix horns, he was advocating the 511B for the K horn and others as an upgrade to the K400. If I remember correctly, the K55 is also not really supposed to go down to 400HZ but it works as implemented, and Al was able to use the Altec 511B down below 500 HZ. Not perfect but many tried it and it should work fine. Read some old threads. Good advice and yes the region around 225hz to 325hz would benefit from correction and adds again to a cleaner low end reproduction. Sometimes the room's acoustics along with the listener and loudspeaker locations can prove to be beneficial as well as detrimental in this region depending on each unique circumstance so that needs to be kept in mind also. As far as old threads look at Q-mans and John Warren's work on EQing the LF as well as Klipsch's latest networks. miketn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 JBryan said.....the bass bin has a hard time reaching beyond 350Hz and actually begins to distort above 200Hz or so. While it may be able to develop frequencies above 350Hz, they will be very attenuated and distorted and adding gain to the upper frequencies will emphasize the distortion...not a good thing IMO. JBryan and others Look at the data and comments from the from the AES Jub development paper for comments on distortion and limits. The Khorn is good to about 550hz and actually it's distortion is a little better than the Jub in the 250hz - 400hz region but the Jub has a significant advantage from 200hz down. miketn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 the K55 is also not really supposed to go down to 400HZ depending how its mounted...in a plane wave tube it can go down to 110hz. the k-400 is more of the limiting factor. k-55's are used in the k-260 horn and as the name suggest, work just fine at 250hz. Obvious solution is to make the khorn a 4 way and put a k-260 horn between the bass bin and the existing top section....but then, we could call that a Patrician IV clone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 the black line of the graph is for the khorn and it shows the same nose dive at 350hz that the other graph shows. you would need 37db of EQ'ing just to level out the nose dive. Look at the graph level/frequency again unless you are trying to reach much higher than 500Hz there is no requirement close to 37db of boost. miketn The best I can get...is 28db of boost to Bring the low dip at 500hz to the peak of 300hz. sure we can cut the peaks off to close the gap between peaks and valleys, but you would be cutting SPL sensitivity off in doing so. This very issue resulted in the need for a new design which led to the Jubilee work. Boosting the bass bin up is not the answer. Frequencies above 120hz are very directional. Finding horns that can reach 250 to 350 hz is more practical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 altec 311 goes below 400hz well. there are others as well. I too suggest you not try to bring the bass bin up higher, better to drop the mid horn down to 300hz.. regards, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 altec 311 goes below 400hz well. there are others as well. I too suggest you not try to bring the bass bin up higher, better to drop the mid horn down to 300hz.. regards, tony yup...thats the way to do it. If you have a k-401 horn you can cut it on the driver end to convert it to a 2" driver. A few folks have done this and glued a mounting plate at the cut off. Why do this??? Well horn math to compute frequency response includes the driver opening.....use a bigger driver hole...frequency goes lower. Not the most elaborate approach by a good quick and dirty fix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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