Where would Klipschorn sweetspot be in a 17' x 24' Room??

[tswei]

Want to use this on the short wall (17' one) for a media area of a large basement. If I snug them into my corner, where would sweetspot be??

My high school geometry tells me that it's a right triangle, assuming the horn is mounted exactly at 45 degrees. So take 17'/2*SQRT2 = about 11 feet.

Does this sound right?? and is it a big sweetspot so others on the couch can hear it??

[HDBRbuilder]

The math for this situation with speakers firing 45 degrees out of a square corner, on short wall gives the hypotenuse © line as the 45 degree firing line, and half the wall length as one side of the right triangle(A=8.5') EQUAL to the other side(B=8.5') in length, so measure 8.5' out from center of short wall, PERPENDICULAR to that wall, and you are there. You don't even need to get fancy with the math on an equilateral triangle situation if speakers are firing at 45 degrees..

If you use a three-speaker stereo array, then the "sweet spot" will be considerably wider, and can also extend to deeper area. But other factors enter into the ideal sweet spot other than just floor dimensions. (windows, doors, furniture, acoustic treatments, carpeting, curtains, even the human bodies). A similarly-voiced center channel speaker should be a consideration (Belle Klipsch, LaScala, Cornwall, Heresy...in that order of precedence). Using the short wall is also an issue, for all that space behind the sweet spot and what it consists of. Just a thought.

Andy

[Chris A]

Want to use this on the short wall (17' one) for a media area of a large basement. If I snug them into my corner, where would sweet spot be??

My high school geometry tells me that it's a right triangle, assuming the horn is mounted exactly at 45 degrees. So take 17'/2*SQRT2 = about 11 feet.

Does this sound right??

Yes No, about 12 9 feet. Watch out for the room modes at the center 1/3 multiples of the room length - you might want to sit about a foot or so further back or further forward (a little forward is actually preferred).

...and is it a big sweet spot so others on the couch can hear it??

Yes, especially if you remove all the stuff between the speakers (like equipment racks) and coffee tables just in front of your listening position. [Y]

Make sure that there is something absorbent on the floor. like carpet, and if your ceiling is lower than about 9 feet, you might put something on the ceiling to diffuse the sound a bit - about halfway back to your listening position.

If you can't move all the gear out of the way between the speakers, then put some absorbent material on the sides of the racks/center speaker.

If you put some absorbent material right next to the speakers on the side walls and the front wall just next to your Khorn midranges, you'll get a much stronger center phantom image when you sit on centerline--much stronger.

Trust me...[]

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/154887/1631048.aspx#1631048

Chris

[Chris A]

Welcome! [<)]

Chris

[HPower]

Welcome to the forum tswei.

My room is similar to yours, just a little bit smaller... 15ft x 20ft.

When I was running KHorns I 1st put mine on the short wall and was pretty happy with the way things were sounding.

One day I was fine tuning the balance on my pre and as I adjusted it and took a few steps back to listen, I was shocked

at how better everything sounded about half way back to my normal listen position.

For an experiment I then moved the speakers to the long wall and was blown away by how better thing sounded, the soundstage

was huge, with the main subject (voice) dead in the center and the rest of the band filling in all the way to each corner.

I would suggest trying both layouts, but I bet that you will appreciate the long wall placement better.

[Chris A]

For an experiment I then moved the speakers to the long wall and was blown away by how better thing sounded, the soundstage was huge, with the main subject (voice) dead in the center and the rest of the band filling in all the way to each corner.

Khorns have a couple of "features" that make this statement true:

1) They aren't time aligned (and you can do something about the tweeter-midrange time alignment problem without cost), and

2) The midrange horn doesn't control its polars all the way down to 400 Hz crossover with the bass bin

One way to listen to your Khorns much closer and still retain the huge soundstage--tri-amp them:

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/156476/1651159.aspx

Chris

[HDBRbuilder]

Once again, the correct answer to your original question about the short wall sweet spot is 8.5' feet out from the wall center, and even then you will have to make fine adjustment OUTWARD of around a foot (give or take) or so for that couch ...BECAUSE, if the EXACT centerline of the high freq fire from both speakers is aimed at your EARS, your soundstage will suffer, so if you move that crossing point to the tip of your nose or a bit further in front of your face, you will notice a better soundstage!

If you don't believe this answer is correct, then I suggest you get a sheet of graph paper and plot it out, since that will show you the answer WITHOUT the math problem. (Always a good idea, anyway)

I agree that using the long wall would be a better option, especially with using a three-speaker array which will widen that sweet spot even moreso. To understand how this works just go to the Dope from Hope papers on this website, it's all in there if you want to see it better explained...you may also want to get into the "golden mean" for some of the explanation.

Andy

[Chris A]

Once again, the correct answer to your original question about the short wall sweet spot is 8.5' feet out from the wall center, and even then you will have to make fine adjustment OUTWARD of around a foot (give or take) or so for that couch .

Oops, you're right - I calculated the hypotenuse - 12 feet from the corner.

BECAUSE, if the EXACT centerline of the high freq fire from both speakers is aimed at your EARS, your soundstage will suffer,

I respectfully disagree. (Even PWK disagrees.)

Where did you get this, Andy?

Chris

[HDBRbuilder]

Once again, the correct answer to your original question about the short wall sweet spot is 8.5' feet out from the wall center, and even then you will have to make fine adjustment OUTWARD of around a foot (give or take) or so for that couch .

Oops, you're right - I calculated the hypotenuse - 12 feet from the corner.

BECAUSE, if the EXACT centerline of the high freq fire from both speakers is aimed at your EARS, your soundstage will suffer,

I respectfully disagree.

Where did you get this, Andy?

Chris

From lots of experience...speakers are NOT headphones...headphones can use your skull mass to transmit some soundstage, but if your ears are overloaded by high frequencies from SPEAKERS, that will adversely affect the lower frequendies you HEAR. Try it and you will see...use two small speakers, one in each hand. Like PWK said.."we live in the midrange!"

The EXACT sweet spot really isn't so sweet...PWK was referring to an AREA, not an EXACT SPOT...you have to fine-tune within that AREA to find the TRUE sweet spot...and if you want to get closer to it, then I was trying to help...your call tho! Your room, your speakers, your music, your call...LOL!-

[Chris A]

I still disagree. In fact, what you are saying is actually NOT true, IMHO.

But I have heard a lot of rooms that had Khorns, and the acoustics of the rooms they were in were so poor that you couldn't hear a phantom center image.

That's the original reason I wrote the "Corner Horn Imaging FAQ", referenced above in my first post in this thread.

Chris.

[HDBRbuilder]

I will not argue just give a scenario:

Situation:

two fully horn-loaded three-way speakers for a stereo set-up, firing out of cormers at 45 degree centerlines.

In order to find an exact centerline crossing, which SOME people consider a sweet spot, the ear openings willm be directly aligned to the center line reception of the tweeter, which projects the narrowest dispersion

the listener hears two speakers with soundstage that already has a hole in its center...

As the head is moved forward, the soundstage center hole widens as the soundstage widens

As the head moves rearward, the soundstage center hole narrows as the overall soundstage narrows

Once the head is moved far enough rearward, there is a good even soundstage, and that is the TRUE sweet spot. width of room corner placement will determine amount of distance to a point, then do fine tuning adjustments

Situation:

Three-speaker-stereo array using speakers as above, but with one of them being a center channel

same exact starting point position between flank speakers as above...width of soundstage is wide...find point where the width is what you want, by moving head rearward a tiny bit so that you see the center hole begin to close, then turn on center channel and adjust its volume to fill the hole the rest of the way..until soundstage center is balanced with the ends.

One of a number of reasons that...Three speaker array is better deal..SIMPLE!

[Chris A]

As the head is moved forward, the soundstage center hole widens as the soundstage widens

Ummm, not in my room...not the part about soundstage hole getting wider.

But why this is true isn't easy to explain because of the corrections done in both time alignment and in room acoustics. You can do these corrections with Khorns, too, not just "Jubilee Klipschorns".

But..the OP's question has been answered here: Andy, you got that one right, and I got that one wrong.

Chris

[mikebse2a3]

My experience is the center image is best with the least center image shifting (when you move to the left or right of the sweetspot on a couch) is when you are 1ft to 2ft behind were the left and right loudspeaker's center axis cross in front of the sweetspot. Amplitude shifts to counter the phase(ie:time shifting) is more favorable for the behind the center axis crossing positions.

As has been said also individual room conditions can vary this but in general the long wall is usually the best. The short wall locations in rectangular rooms often place the listener close to the center of the room which often leads to a weaker/uneven bass tonal balance versus the long wall options if the room allows.

miketn

[HDBRbuilder]

Chris, it isn't an argument, nor is it a contest, it is just a suggestion...one that works for me. I am not a scientist nor am I a mathmetician or an engineer...so I have to explain it in terms I understand, and have experienced.

God Bless this Nation!

[Chris A]

Mike,

 

Consider the situation where you are on a 45 degree diagonal cross point on the room's centerline from the room's corners at one end of the room. Any cancelling or supporting standing waves that occur from the symmetry of the corners will be accentuated, but if you are behind or in front of this point, you will be "off nodal axis".

 

I've found that aiming corner horns slightly inward has a couple of benefits, like you mentioned with the stereo geometry being on your side, but mostly because of avoiding the symmetric side- and front-wall reflections in the midrange from the reflections coming off the walls right at the exit of the midrange horns.

 

One problem with a Khorn is that it MUST be centered at 45 degrees in the corner (...unless of course you are using false corners to allow them to be turned slightly outward). This is really a room acoustic issue and not speaker "on-axis listening" issue, IMHO. Staying off the 45 diagonals, especially when the speaker is centered 45 degrees on the corner due to its design, benefits mf imaging performance.

 

Unless of course you have used one 3 ft x 3 ft acoustic treatment tile on each of the side walls and one on each side on the front wall next to the corner horn midrange exit to help with the midrange imaging issue.

It doesn't take much to correct the problem.

 

Chris

Edited July 5, 2016 by Chris A

[Fish]

There are several good suggestions mentioned here.I would only add that I prefer the lines to intersect behind my head a foot or two also.

[JJkizak]

I have had the Khorns and powered Cornwall in 4 different rooms/houses and the one with the 17 ft dimension sounded the worst.

JJK

[tswei]

Really??? Is there something particularly wrong with 17 ft?? Doesn't it depend on overall room dimensions and geometry??

[tswei]

Another option I was considering was using heresy's in each corner with two subs along that short wall.

My main goal is to get a lively sound at low volumes and not have towers in the middle of the room. Dynamics

are the key for me. Maybe the KHorns are just too inflexible.

BTW, I plan on using this for 2.2 channel theater also. The Heresy approach would allow the the ability to add

identical center Heresy to the front stage, and even Heresy surrounds, if I ever wanted to go multichannel.

[JJkizak]

The 17 ft one was an apartment with a living room/kitchen combo and if you added the kitchen dimension it was about 10 more feet. The speakers had to be on the 17 ft wall. All in all it was pretty ugly. (Worse than ugly, terrible bass, shrill treble) I went through a lot of beer on that one and hearing went to 16.4 KHZ. Another home had a living room about 24 x 24 and that seem to free things up with the very high ceilings. Also a 24 x 10 x 12 "L" shaped room worked well with low ceiling. Present location is 12 ft x 23 FT and is not bad except for the glide tones (CBS test records) which dance around all over the place. Hearing now about 10khz. max. ( And I mean max, not one HZ over.)