stumped Posted June 20, 2002 Share Posted June 20, 2002 ....at least I think they are. I just looked at the Klipsch website and they listed the Heresy IIs at 97db with 1 watt @ 1 meter and maximum output as 114db with 100 watts. This can't be. With 97db efficiency with 1 watt, then it should be 117db (not 114 as listed) with 100 watts, yes? They also listed the frequency response as 63hz to 20khz. This seems crazy since my Heresy IIs are listed as 50hz to 20khz with 96db of sensitivity and they were made in 1989. Has Klipsch made differences to the HeresyII since then or is the information/specs on their website wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpg Posted June 20, 2002 Share Posted June 20, 2002 There are Heresy's and then there are Heresy II.... are you sure you do not have the regular Heresy's? Your description sounds like the originaly Heresy's. ------------------ Have a ProMedia sound problem? Visit SoundWise for help. Still have PM sound probs? Email Amy or call at 1-888-554-5665. s>This message has been edited by trespasser_guy on 06-20-2002 at 09:30 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stumped Posted June 20, 2002 Author Share Posted June 20, 2002 Nope. I have the heresy IIs. Just looked a the tag on the back. TYPE H BR. SERIAL 8818726. There's some misc numbers: 518/127 <0311> <0321>. Inspected by R. Wyatt and tested by J. Clayton. The wire connections on the back bottom of the speaker says HERESY II. I have the old brochure from the store where I bought them and it says 96db 1 watt @ 1 meter. 100 watts max. 50hz-20khz. So yes, I do have the Heresy II model. Why does the Klipsch website say 63hz to 20khz and 97db 1 watt @ 1 meter with 114db max output? And the max output is wrong cause 97db with 1 watt would be 117 with 100 watts. Either Klipsch has made some changes to the Heresy II or their specifications on their website are wrong (the math for the maximum output must be anyway). Don't tell me they're sleeping down there in Hope... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpg Posted June 20, 2002 Share Posted June 20, 2002 Very strange.......... ------------------ Have a ProMedia sound problem? Visit SoundWise for help. Still have PM sound probs? Email Amy or call at 1-888-554-5665. s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stumped Posted June 20, 2002 Author Share Posted June 20, 2002 Tell you what - go look at the La Scalas, Khorns and Belle's specs right now on the Klipsch website. They say the sensitivity is 104 for the la scalas and khorns and list their max output at 121db with 100 watts. This cannot be the case! It should be 124db with 100 watts, yes?! The then list the Belle Klipsch at 103db sensitivity (which is odd - it should be 104 as well) and they have a max output listed as 120db with 100 watts and that too, is mathematically incorrect - it should be 123db with 100watts based on 103db efficiency with 1 watt at 1 meter. My old Klipsch brochure from 1989 states that the Khorns, La Scalas and Belles are 104db with 1 watt @ 1 meter and 124db max output with 100 watts. Now maybe Klipsch changed some specs here and there (although I don't think so personally) but their math is certainly incorrect. I sure as hell hope they didn't send out brochures to the audio stores with those figures on them - they'd look like fools. Someone should check on this and if I'm right, perhaps direct somebody at Klipsch to this post and let them know that someone at Klispch is asleep at the wheel. I hope not though, because I love Klipsch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynnm Posted June 20, 2002 Share Posted June 20, 2002 stumped - I am too tired to do the math but: Klipsch could spec those speakers pretty much as they wished and 99.99% of the shoppers would not really understand what the sensitivity ratings mean. I am not questioning your comments - nor am I questioning Klipsch's rating -see my opening comment. The reality is that the nuances of sensitivity/audio output are lost on most consumers. Typically one need only hear a set of Klipsch speakers - And Ratings be Damned - How the Hello am I Going to Get Them Home?? 8~)> ------------------ It is meet to recall that the Great Green Heron rarely flies upside down in the moonlight - (Foo Ling ca.1900) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 20, 2002 Share Posted June 20, 2002 The math is not very difficult. It takes a doubling of power to get a 3db increase, and it takes a tenfold increase in power to double the sound pressure level, or a 10db increase. Heresy II 001 watt @ 3 feet = 097db 010 watts@ 3 feet = 107db 100 watts@ 3 feet = 117db Klipschorn 001 watt @ 3 feet = 104db 010 watts@ 3 feet = 114db 100 watts@ 3 feet = 124db I'm stumped too. The math on the cut sheets is wrong. Doesn't surprise me. If you look at the cut sheet for the LaScala, it says construction is Birch ply and MDF. However, I sent an email to some folks at Klipsch asking about the MDF in the LaScala and I was assured there is NO MDF. The frequency response measurement for the Heresy II IS odd. The only explanation for that would be if they took the measurement with the speaker practically sitting in the middle of the room. We KNOW the Heresy goes lower than 63Hz. Beats mef>s>------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25 * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * Klipsch RF7s f>s> Psalm 122:6f>c>s> This message has been edited by deang on 06-20-2002 at 10:48 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted June 20, 2002 Share Posted June 20, 2002 Stumped, The new version of the Heresy II that is currently in manufacture has a slightly different tweeter than previously used, and I believe the driver for the mid-horn is slightly different, too. Both are also being made by different manufacturers than previously. I am not sure about the woofer having been changed any, though. The cross-over network is also changed. These changes may account for some of the given differences in the performance data for the current version compared to its predecessor. There is also the possibility of transcription errors by the marketing department, re.: the case of the "MDF in the LaScala" being in error, too!! Seems at least SOME proofreading of what the marketing side of the company is putting out is needed, anyway!! ------------------ I can now receive private messages This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 06-20-2002 at 11:35 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted June 21, 2002 Share Posted June 21, 2002 Guys, I'm not affiliated with Klipsch in any way, so anything I say here is just a layperson's perspective, but... My take on the different specs is that Klipsch is being *MORE* accurate with the new specs. The point that 104dB at 1 watt at some distance equates to 124dB at 100 watts at that same distance is true *ONLY IF* the speaker in question is capable of playing 20dB louder with no compression or limitations due to the mechanical structure of the drivers, saturation of the crossovers, losses due to resonances in the cabinets, etc. etc. etc. I strongly doubt that even a Klipschorn is able to scale perfectly linearly from whisper quiet to absurdly loud without any loss of sensitivity. That just seems impossible. My guess is that the new specs represent actual measured values of the new Heritage series, while the older specs where based on some measurements and some extrapolation. Of course, whether one could hear the difference between 121dB and 124dB over the rattling of various bones, teeth and structural components is another question... Ray ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Ray's Music System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stumped Posted June 21, 2002 Author Share Posted June 21, 2002 I thought Klipsch manufactured their own parts (drivers, cabinets, crossovers, etc...)?! Furthermore, it seems like nobody's sure as to whether or not Klipsch changed drivers somewhere in the Heresy II's production line. Anyway, even if they did, I can't imagine they would do such a thing IF it would have resulted in raising the bottom end of the speaker from an already not-so-impressive 50hz to the currently stated 63hz. Why do THIS to a speaker already critized for a lack of low end? Ray may have a valid point with respect to the speaker's output, but in all honesty, I think you're looking at mutliple mistakes on Klispch's part with respect to it's offered literature on it's products. <shaking my head because I can't believe Klispch would go through the trouble to put up such an awesome website but SCREW UP the basics). Somebody from Klipsch really ought to LOOK at this post if for no other reason then to say "Shut up Stumped, you're wrong and here's why..." Otherwise, their CURRENT credibility's in question by anyone reading the specifications sheet on their products. I mean, would BOSE (uh-oh, the "B" word!) or KEF make the same mistake?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stumped Posted June 21, 2002 Author Share Posted June 21, 2002 Just called Klipsch Headquarters and the nice lady who answered put me through to a guy named Nathan who's in charge of the website. Unfortunately, I got Nathan's voicemail but I left him a quick message saying that maybe they want to view this post and see if any errors do, in fact exist, so they can correct them. I sure hope to see a reply from Klipsch HQ pesonnel on this topic! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted June 21, 2002 Share Posted June 21, 2002 Stumped, The difference is compression in the drivers. NO speaker has linear output from 1 watt to max. power. The new frequency bandwidth is most likely from a different testing technique. The older K-horns were said, by Mr. Paul, to be linear up to 63 watts. After that the double the power and get 3 dB didn't work. Heresies would not be linear through as wide a range. You are not seeing something new. You have just discovered something you didn't know. So far, the HIIs have the same drivers your HIIs have, but that may change, now that the new KH/LS/B drivers are in production. Klipsch only makes a few if its own drivers, not all. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted June 21, 2002 Share Posted June 21, 2002 John, My discussion with Engineer Jim the other day touched on a number of topics...one of which was the change in the tweeter for the new heritage models...it is very similar to the EV one...but slight changes...and now made by a different manufacturer. On another thread, one of the members posted that in conversation with Klipsch unnamed engineer on phone, the engineer stated that mid-driver was also different and made by different manufacturer than before...that is all I know about it...but Engineer Jim said cross-over is changed on new heritage models too! Either way...ACTUAL measurements of a speaker in the anechoic chamber CAN yield results differing from mathematic probability as the input power is raised to the speaker...that is a "given"...no such thing as a perfect world...and mathematical probabilities are based on particular standards remaining the same when utilizing the formulas...so... ------------------ I can now receive private messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted June 21, 2002 Share Posted June 21, 2002 i didn't realize the driver changes also applied to the heresy II. how was klipsch then able to keep production going on the heresy II & not suspend it as w/ the other heritage models? guess they had a heck of a driver inventory for the heresy. or no driver supply problems there? then they just decided to switch the heresy to the new drivers also? ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipschguy Posted June 21, 2002 Share Posted June 21, 2002 Ditto on the dynamic compression. Old specs were the ones that were wrong (based on theoretical vs. actual). BTW, dynamic compression (distortion) is pretty easy to hear - everything starts sounding like it's at one volume. Also note, Klipsch doesn't suffer near as much dynamic compression as most conventional designs. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimG Posted June 21, 2002 Share Posted June 21, 2002 OK, Nathan sent me the email about this thread so I just got on and read it all. I entered the original specs for the website when the site changed some time ago. I entered the numbers that had been used for quite some time on the Heritage models. Recently, I noticed they had been changed on the website when deang sent me an email asking about MDF in LaScalas. I think what has happened is this: the product manager for Heritage speakers has updated the specs to them. He is never on this BB and is currently on vacation until Monday. He'll see the email from Nathan and can respond then. (Not on here though - Bob or I will have to relay the message if it is any different than what I have written in this post.) As for the specs, the numbers up now are a more realistic representation of the current products than those previous numbers were. In addition to being a little more accurate, they also represent the changes in the new HF and MF drivers. It's a combination of those two things that result in the new specs you now see. Keep in mind that the networks are new in these three models. They had to be changed to accommodate the new drivers and we also took the opportunity to make some improvements to the overall sound of those three models. In fact, let me just copy some of what was sent from the product manager to deang in regards to the changes: "...the new drivers are very similar to the previous ones, they just have a slightly different response curves which mandated a new network. The tweeter is basically the same design with parts and assembly now being handled by a different source. The midrange compression driver is a similar type but is a different design from a different supplier (if all that makes any sense). Since we were doing a new network we took the opportunity to refine the voicing to give a more balanced presentation tonally. The La Scala is actually the least changed of the three fully horn loaded Heritage models with a more modest improvement / change from the previous version. The Belle is noticably improved and the Klipschorn is transformed! To answer your question about the new version being as good as the previous, the answer is it's improved. The other technical changes to the La Scala are the elimination of the old screw type barrier strip, used for attaching the speaker wire, to the use of two pairs of five way binding posts. This facilitates bi-wiring and connection using spade lugs or banana plugs. We also updated the mounting of the tweeter, from being mounted on the back of the baffle and firing through 3/4" hole, to the "Z" bracket system used on the Klipschorn. This method flushes the front of the tweeter with the front of the baffle to reduce diffraction effects at high frequencies. We then dialed in a phase / time compensation for this in the new network since the tweeter diaphragm position was now moved 3/4" forward relative to the plane of the midrange driver diaphragm." That should help clarify some of your questions. I did notice the MDF thing on the LaScala page and that is simply a mistake. I'll get it changed early next week, if not sooner. There is no MDF in a LaScala. As for the Heresy, it has had no changes whatsoever made to it. The HF and MF drivers are the same as they have been for some time. It doesn't use the same ones as the KH, BK and LS so therefore was unaffected by the driver changes and production delays that those other three went through. I also believe that the low end number of 63 vs. 50 is simply a more realistic measurement of its capabilities. There is a desire to make some changes to the Heresy at some point in time in the future, but it didn't fit into the whole scheme of things with the other three at this time. I hope this helps explain it a little bit. Oh yeah, I think the differences in max output and sensitivity are correct as written now due to changes in the drivers (they are just a hair less sensitive than before - and it really only showed up on the one model) and the fact that the speakers aren't completely linear when pushed to their limits, hence the 3dB scale doesn't exactly apply. Somewhere in this thread that was explained fairly well - John Albright I think posted about it as well as someone else. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted June 21, 2002 Share Posted June 21, 2002 So we really don't know why the folks in engineering established a given level as the max. Obviously the linearity doesn't go on forever and the systems reach their limits. There is some physics to this. The diaphragms can only move so far to push air. So there is a limit on travel of the diaphragms. Also, please consider that air has its limits too. Not in how much a diaphagm can push it, but the rarification in sucking it out. Very generally, the air movers can create a lot of pressure on the plus side of the sine wave, but they can only go down to zero pressure on the negative. This has nothing to do with efficency or pumping capablity. So lets say that atmospheric pressure is 14 psi. A compression driver might be able to drive it up to 28 psi (double) and down to zero (a vacuum). These are real theoretical limits not met. But going farther in the concept, if you're going up to positive 30, and can't get to negative 2; because a vacuum is zero. Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted June 22, 2002 Share Posted June 22, 2002 Ummmm...there is a limit to the 3db for ever 2X in power, its called *power compression*-> SPL/W drops when voice coils get hot. sensitivity drops with power. it terminates with a smoked voice coil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted June 22, 2002 Share Posted June 22, 2002 Hey Gil, This topic (compression and rarification waves in an ideal gas) is one of those things that just keeps getting more and more complicateder the more you delve into it. It was one of the most vexing problems that Sir Newton wrapped his brain around, and he was never able to completely reconcile his calculation on the theoretical speed of sound at some temperature / pressure to the observed values - he was always off a bit, and couldn't figure out why. I think he wound up writing it off as mostly experimental / observational error, which wasn't correct. Just to get an idea of how complex all this gets, check out this page, and bring an asprin... http://www.phys.virginia.edu/classes/152.mf1i.spring02/Compressional%20Waves.htm Ray ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Ray's Music System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted June 22, 2002 Share Posted June 22, 2002 I will not pretend to understand the partial differential equation in the link. I suspect that the math / physics there does not go into the specific subject of power issues like the ones we're discussing. My suspicion is that the maximum power rating for the speaker is at a level where linearity is falling apart, distortion is rising dramatically. The whole subject is a bit misleading. I'm not mocking anyone. However, you see people focusing on maximum output levels where the amps and the speakers are being driven to an inch of their capabilities. Hopefully no one is driving their systems to those levels. If so, they need bigger systems, rather than driving small ones to near failure. Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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