Adding an amp to an AVR

[Zen Traveler]

lowest end that will do 9 channels in that model year

Just because a receiver says it's 7.1 or even 9.1, doesn't meant it does it well. A receiver's power supply can only provide so much. Asking a receiver to power 7 speakers, much less 9 is a lot. Have you ever wondered why 5ch amps weight 85 - 100 lbs and for example, the Denon AVR-4311ci mentioned which is a 9.1 receiver weighs only 38lbs? Logic says there is definitely compromise when putting a preamp, processor and a 9 channel amp in one chasis. Not saying the Denon 4311 is not a good performer, I just agree with Reference Head, "A top end avr will get you plenty loud in most systems. But getting loud and sounding as good are totally different."

I agree that external amps should/will drive speakers that are no where near as efficient and sensitive as ours, but what is important is that there is enough current to drive them at the volume level we desire without them clipping....The AVR-4311ci is rated to drive speakers that are 4 Ohm in a multispeaker configuration. Also for the record, after running Audyssey it sets my trim levels for my 9.2 Home Theater between -6 to -8 so at Reference Level "0" I have the amount of Headroom to drive my system efficiently.

[Zen Traveler]

If anyone is interested I got my AVR-4311ci at OneCall.com for $1299 and they are a Denon Authorized Dealer.

Which is a good deal however you can get a refurbished 4311 for $999.99.

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/DENAVR4311CI/DENON-AVR-4311CI-9.2-Channel-Network-Home-Theater-Receiver/1.html

Bill

Watch out for the Refurbished units...I agree they could be a good deal, but when I was researching the Denon AVR-4520 that I was considering found that quite a few of those refurbished units had problems and only come with a 1 year warranty...What sealed the deal for me on the AVR-4311ci, was that for my purposes there wasn't much difference in AVRS and I get the standard Denon 3 year warranty and I put it on my American Express which gives me a 4th year. That's not to dissuade anyone but to give something additional to think about.

[kde]

Ok... it sounds like I will keep my separates set up and not return to the AVR world. I was considering the AVR for a more simple system. Still considering upgrading the UMC-1 for something more user friendly. Will let you know how this plays out...

[Zen Traveler]

Ok... it sounds like I will keep my separates set up and not return to the AVR world. I was considering the AVR for a more simple system. Still considering upgrading the UMC-1 for something more user friendly. Will let you know how this plays out...

If you already own your external amps I wouldn't rule out a mid-level AVR.

[Heritage_Head]

lowest end that will do 9 channels in that model year

Just because a receiver says it's 7.1 or even 9.1, doesn't meant it does it well. A receiver's power supply can only provide so much. Asking a receiver to power 7 speakers, much less 9 is a lot. Have you ever wondered why 5ch amps weight 85 - 100 lbs and for example, the Denon AVR-4311ci mentioned which is a 9.1 receiver weighs only 38lbs? Logic says there is definitely compromise when putting a preamp, processor and a 9 channel amp in one chasis. Not saying the Denon 4311 is not a good performer, I just agree with Reference Head, "A top end avr will get you plenty loud in most systems. But getting loud and sounding as good are totally different."

I agree that external amps should/will drive speakers that are no where near as efficient and sensitive as ours, but what is important is that there is enough current to drive them at the volume level we desire without them clipping....The AVR-4311ci is rated to drive speakers that are 4 Ohm in a multispeaker configuration. Also for the record, after running Audyssey it sets my trim levels for my 9.2 Home Theater between -6 to -8 so at Reference Level "0" I have the amount of Headroom to drive my system efficiently.

Again getting to reference level is not the point. It's how it sounds at that level that an avr can't match. Your room is super small so imo it's not really a fair comparison.

[Heritage_Head]

Ok... it sounds like I will keep my separates set up and not return to the AVR world. I was considering the AVR for a more simple system. Still considering upgrading the UMC-1 for something more user friendly. Will let you know how this plays out...

Do you want 3d and 4k?

[Zen Traveler]

Again getting to reference level is not the point. It's how it sounds at that level that an avr can't match. Your room is super small so imo it's not really a fair comparison.

How it sounds at the level I wanted to listen was the point and at Reference Level I have the Headroom needed as my Audyssey numbers indicate.

[kde]

I was leaning towards the Marantz AV7005 on accessories4less, but could go up to the $1,600 for the AV7701 to "future proof" but not really sure it's necessary. I do think 4k will come more prevalent sooner than expected though (and I may need a new tv in a few years).

[Heritage_Head]

Again getting to reference level is not the point. It's how it sounds at that level that an avr can't match. Your room is super small so imo it's not really a fair comparison.

How it sounds at the level I wanted to listen was the point and at Reference Level I have the Headroom needed as my Audyssey numbers indicate.

The only way you will ever know for sure is to get an amp and see how it compares. Never having an amp in your current system makes it impossible to know if it would be better or not. Your only guessing. But like I said if your happy that all matters

[Heritage_Head]

The people that own amps and have compared them say its a upgrade in sound and system performance. That's not guessing that's proof

[Heritage_Head]

I was leaning towards the Marantz AV7005 on accessories4less, but could go up to the $1,600 for the AV7701 to "future proof" but not really sure it's necessary. I do think 4k will come more prevalent sooner than expected though (and I may need a new tv in a few years).

I think your right. 4k is coming

[Zen Traveler]

[ The only way you will ever know for sure is to get an amp and see how it compares. Never having an amp in your current system makes it impossible to know if it would be better or not. Your only guessing. But like I said if your happy that all matters

Let's back up a bit...You explain to me why speakers that are "8 Ohm Compatible" and have Sensitivity ratings between 98 db to 101 dB/1 meter need external amps to drive efficiently? You said it was 'science' so I would like to hear your explanation.

[skonopa]

Here is a topic that I am all to familier with.....

I was (actually still am, but really getting long in the tooth...) using a Denon AVR3802 as my reciever. I thought it actually sounded quite good with the RF-3s that I started out, only to immediately trade those in to the RF-7s. I was using that setup for a couple of years and thought it was awesome. However, the upgrade bug started to bite and I kept eyeing that B&K Reference 200.7 amp that I really liked the sound of that I saw in the show room. Ended up pulling the trigger on that baby and adding it to my rig. I immediatly noticed a marked improvement in the sound. Much better clarity, and more detail. I kept using the Denon as my pre/pro, and like mentioned above, I am still using it, although it is getting really long in the tooth. I will admit that it does really sound quite incredible to my ears. Now, looking at dropping some coin to get a Marantz AV8802 pre/pro at the local shop. Will also want to eventually upgrade my TV (still using a Mitsubishi Diamond series WS-55813 rear projection TV.)

That being said, some of those high-end AVRs do have excellent amp sections and do indeed sound good.

[willland]

Room size factors in just about as much as power available to drive your setup. IMO, if you have a 10W x 12L x 8H room and your 5.1/7.1/9.1 setup speakers are 94dB+ efficient and are rated 8ohms nominal with a few near 4ohm dips, a mid/high level model AVR is all that is needed to provide plenty of clean power to reasonable volume levels. A flagship model will do it with ease.

Before I picked up my NAD T175HD pre/pro, I was using an NAD T773 flagship(52.8 pounds/110w x 7) AVR to drive my 5.1 RF-63 system in a 6000+ ft3 room. Believe me the NAD alone was easily up to the task. However, when I added my previous Acurus 200FIVE amp at 200w x 5, my system really came alive with more detail, punch, and a wider and deeper soundstage.

Bill

[Zen Traveler]

I am not sure how your mind changed from this post to now but the circumstances haven't .

Your room is really small so I'm sure with 1-10 watts your probably in good shape. average size room is much bigger. Its probably more to do with the size of your room than the power of the avr. But even still a nice power amp is going to have a cleaner power supply and effortless sound. But if your happy thats all that counts.

Btw, Here is a write up on Popalock's AVS Forum Home Theater of the month and he posted his impressions about adding an external amp which he evidently didn't think benefited him either on the Klipsch Owners Thread: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1484131/home-theater-of-the-month-popalocks-bassment-big-screen-bigger-subs

"Powered directly by a Pioneer Elite SC-57 AVR the 4.1 configuration had dynamic range to spare and pulled off visceral displays of raw power—crucial when so much bass power is on tap. It is a good thing Klipsch makes relatively efficient speakers; the SC-57 is a stout receiver, but some of the peak levels we achieved that evening were off the chart. The main front speakers—a pair of Klipsch RF-7 IIs—played the part of monstrous satellites, crossed over at 80Hz despite nothing about them being "small," while a pair of Klipsch RS-62s handled the surround sound duties with aplomb."

Also, you will find several Denon AVR-4311 Owners (or the Anniversary model equivalent) saying basically the same thing on the Klipsch Owners Thread

[derrickdj1]

Again getting to reference level is not the point. It's how it sounds at that level that an avr can't match.

Getting to Reference level is the point under THX criteria. Low distortion quick power swings and hit the max 105 db and 115 db for the speaker and sub is a tall order for most systems, especially non-Klipsch system. This takes power. A system may be ask to hit 122 db wirh redirected bass, That is asking a lot.[H]

[Zen Traveler]

Room size factors in just about as much as power available to drive your setup.

Room size and how far away a person sits from their speakers definitely has an impact on how much power is required...I think anyone who gets several positive trim levels on their speakers after running Audyssey should consider an external amp...That said and as reported, mine all are -6 to -8 and it sounds excellent on movies at Reference Level and on Multichannel music between -10 to -4 sound plenty loud and sublime with peaks hitting 105+ dB and no distortion...As a matter of fact, it's time to go listen now.

[TasDom]

Btw, Here is a write up on Popalock's AVS Forum Home Theater of the month and he posted his impressions about adding an external amp which he evidently didn't think benefited him either on the Klipsch Owners Thread: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1484131/home-theater-of-the-month-popalocks-bassment-big-screen-bigger-subs

"Powered directly by a Pioneer Elite SC-57 AVR the 4.1 configuration had dynamic range to spare and pulled off visceral displays of raw power—crucial when so much bass power is on tap. It is a good thing Klipsch makes relatively efficient speakers; the SC-57 is a stout receiver, but some of the peak levels we achieved that evening were off the chart. The main front speakers—a pair of Klipsch RF-7 IIs—played the part of monstrous satellites, crossed over at 80Hz despite nothing about them being "small," while a pair of Klipsch RS-62s handled the surround sound duties with aplomb."

Post 71 of that thread:

An LCR upgrade is on the radar. Primarily because I need something with a
more slim profile given the RF-7II's are rear ported and 18" deep. The
Noesis 212's are callin my name!!! Just gotta wait for the right timing
with the wifey.




That being said, I still enjoy the RF-7II's tremendously. Mark brought his Crown amp
with him during his visit and we hooked it up just to see how the
RF-7II's would fare with proper juice. I must say... With an external
amp they exceeded what I thought they were capable of. I couldn't
imagine any HT store attempting to even come close to what they can
really do on the showroom if you asked for a demo.


I forget what amp Mark brought. IIRC it was an XTi series. Maybe a XTi1002?


Regarding max output @ 10Hz... I haven't tried it yet. I'll try to get
around to it sometime soon and post measurements on my build thread.

[Zen Traveler]

That being said, I still enjoy the RF-7II's tremendously. Mark brought his Crown amp with him during his visit and we hooked it up just to see how the RF-7II's would fare with proper juice. I must say... With an external amp they exceeded what I thought they were capable of. I couldn't imagine any HT store attempting to even come close to what they can really do on the showroom if you asked for a demo.

I forget what amp Mark brought. IIRC it was an XTi series. Maybe a XTi1002?

Regarding max output @ 10Hz... I haven't tried it yet. I'll try to get around to it sometime soon and post measurements on my build thread.

If you go to the Klipsch Owners Thread you will see they were talking about when they set the RF-7s to Large and were not running the subs.

[Heritage_Head]

[ The only way you will ever know for sure is to get an amp and see how it compares. Never having an amp in your current system makes it impossible to know if it would be better or not. Your only guessing. But like I said if your happy that all matters

Let's back up a bit...You explain to me why speakers that are "8 Ohm Compatible" and have Sensitivity ratings between 98 db to 101 dB/1 meter need external amps to drive efficiently? You said it was 'science' so I would like to hear your explanation.

Read all the posts of people on this thread that went from an avr to a power amp. They say more detail more punch better bass cleaner sound and on and on. When something can supply power better its science. A 85lb pound block of power supplies power better that a 38lb pound avr. Better = better thats science. As i have said in your really small room you probably don't need one. But i think when everyone says the amp sounds better it probably does. So if you had one your system would probably sound better.