anarchist Posted July 31, 2002 Share Posted July 31, 2002 C&S, You either read a lot or made a helluva guess. PM me with your payment particulars. Damn. Not many read the UB or admit it. ------------------ HT - Klipsch Synergy Premiere Audio - Heresy, KG4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdmills Posted July 31, 2002 Share Posted July 31, 2002 Originally posted by forresthump2: MD quotes: ""While average weekly wages (in CURRENT DOLLARS) has tripled since 1970, the following table illustrates that when inflation is accounted for, real earnings IN CONSTANT DOLLARS have decreased steadily over the past two decades. Weekly wages have fallen 10%. Thus, even though 1998 paychecks have more zeroes on the end, they don't go as far as a 1970 paycheck to cover living expenses." source: US Labor Bureau" I agree with forresthump, but to add to his point on inflation. Inflation also increases the money people pay in taxes to the goverment. It is in the goverment's favor to allow inflation to occur. It increases there income in a couple different way. First, it effective lowers the standard deduction, since that deduction isn't adjusted by the rising rate of inflation. Second, by floating everyone salaries up, people gravitate towards higher and higher tax brackets, further increasing the percentage of income the goverment takes from you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 As goes the Unions, so goes the country. Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forresthump2 Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 "So, let's be clear - - PRODUCTIVITY climbed by 324% and wages FELL by 10%. This is what Forest is claiming is good for us." Spinmeister in action again. He does not address that inflation was double digits within this time frame. More spin, inflation caused real income to fall. This does not make the case for higher wages, it makes case for lower inflation. Any reasonable person knows higher wages cause higher prices for us. And globalism causes lower prices because the US companies then become more competitive. Inflation is too much money chasing too few goods and services. MD spins it like the GOV has to print more money for inflation to happen. Not so. We in a deflationary time now. If wages go up and productivity doesn't, those types he supports go out and consume more than invest or save. That creates more demand for M1 money and there you have inflationary effect. Companies then raise prices because they can & must to cover their higher wage costs. Prices go up. On average people that make more money invest and make wiser decisions with their money. That investment make it better for everybody. The whole pie then grows in size and even those with a smaller slice get more. Give more money to those that dont earn it and they go out chasing goods and services that is more inflationary. MD uses spin with the few rich people who are posterboys for the Liberals. Fact is they are the exception and not the Norm. I see them as examples of the american dream as far as money goes. The american dream is more powerful than GOV or Union control. The American dream doesn't collect taxes and union dues. And What now, i have to go to supply and demand for labor graphs and tables? LOL This is worthless. The smug Liberal MD does only what Liberals do. He can say he has no allegiance to a political party but fact is radical liberals and communists think just the same. That is that capitalism is wrong because it unequitable that some have so much and some deadbeats have too little. Fact is our system works and their remedies will make it worse and more costly for middle americans and everybody. Who do you trust more to control the economy? Free Market forces or the GOV and Organized Labor? Here is some Practical Idealology for you MD. There are other things in life besides money so the underachievers should embrace those. Go to church or pagan festivals or the free parks and stuff we pay for with all those tax dollars. Some may not want money because they consider it evil. If they want money they can earn it. The opportunity is There. Everyone is free to start their own Company even if they're in Jail. Thing is MD has no practical solutions. Just a lot of verbage and idealogy BS. True Left Coast Libby whether he admits it or not. And it's gotta be frustratin being so far seperated from mainstream and reasonable Americana. ------------------ Go Forth and Hump the World This message has been edited by forresthump2 on 08-01-2002 at 02:00 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybergeek Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 I find TBrennens last post to be sad irony that only solidifies anti-union sentiments. I see most of his targets thinking "well, I'll show him & be a success". On the other hand, I would think TB's response to Forrest would be something along the lines of "well, I'll show him and get more money from the man, the system, the risk-taker, the educated, by working less". That's why Unions are dieing out. They're not in synch with modern american thought any longer. Technology and global trade are the solution and the true unionists now find themselves at odds with even the Democratic party leaders who must now be more moderate to survive. I'm not saying some union workers can't and don't work hard. What I'm saying is the Union itself as a structure does not support harder work for more pay. Most of us were not brought up with such a lack of work ethic. But you can't blame the workers, its the unions. Unions are becoming a non-issue by death from natural causes anyway. Unions are a nonissue, except for the few union workers left. But they can't blame their demise on the GOP. They must blame it on the modernization and wising up of America. ------------------ live long & prosper This message has been edited by cybergeek on 08-01-2002 at 05:22 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 The reasoning in the above post makes sense only in the context mdeenan wishes to use it, which, frankly, is out of context. quote: Profits are not determined on the actual value of something, they are determined on the perceived value. What?! Profits are determined by the difference between cost of goods sold and the revenue produced from the sell of those goods. Profits have no relationship to value whatsoever. Productivity increases will result in more sales or less costs. Period. Profits are related to productivity. Pay is also related to productivity. Your value versus price or value versus cost or value versus productivity arguments are not relevant. My salary increases each year NOT because the US sold more wheat to Russia but because I, in my role at my company, brought in more business, produced more work, or attained some other measure of efficiency. I performed my job well (or not well) relative to the other individuals performing similar roles. To make a counter-argument to this proposition by asking how productivity between dissimilar functions is related, misses the boat completely. It doesn't prove your argument, it suggests you don't understand how to frame your argument. Pay for individual teachers should be related to the productivity of those individual teachers. Pay for individual firemen should be related to the productivity of those individual firemen. Our economy doesn't provide artificial measures to pay folks based on the social values of their particular occupation. Further, the rest of your arguments financially are based on misapplying statistics and failure to take into account that statistics can be used to prove any position you would like to take. You are using limited data to prove a fact without understanding the other factors involved: what was the sample size you used for baselining wages? did the sample size decrease? what occupations were included in the sample? was there any variation? what factors were used to compile the inflation rate utilized? was the productivity increase due to labor or automation? what industries were used in the samples? what accounting methods were used to normalize the data? I am not claiming wages have not decreased for various parts of the population. They certainly have in some industries. They have increased in other industries. They certainly have decreased for those no longer employed. The fact remains prices have gone up and you either swim with the tide or drown. Higher wages will result in higher prices. It is a fact and irrefutable. Higher taxes reduce the net amount of wages you have to spend on those items with higher prices plain and simple. Giving everybody $150K/yr will not increase their standard of living and is not the answer either. It WILL result in an immediately inflationary economy. No more teaching economics, please? ------------------ HT - Klipsch Synergy Premiere Audio - Heresy, KG4 This message has been edited by crash827 on 08-01-2002 at 06:24 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikekid Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 http://www.smithnetny.com/polboard/polboard.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 It is quite apparent that there is an entire generation that has been duped by those that hold power/money. If one had the benefit of TIME under their belt that person would easily be able to understand that part of mdeneen's posts that relate to economics. As Larry stated way back there, there's a generation that is now earning less than their parents did. It will not be the last generation. The only way you can compete with someone that lives in a hut with a dirt floor is to live in a hut with a dirt floor yourself. Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 quote: As Larry stated way back there, there's a generation that is now earning less than their parents did. Yes there is and their occupation is farming. Their demise can be blamed on government interference, subsidies, cost controls, and other incentives to help them that resulted in large corporations taking over due to the massive profits they could amass. Since we apparently want to make this claim and we want to tout statistics as the proof. Allow me to provide this graph which seemingly refutes the prior statistics provided by mdeenan. If that isn't clear enough, let me also provide the raw numbers for 1967 and 1995. -------------------------------------------------------------- Lowest Second Third Fourth Highest Top 5 Year fifth fifth fifth fifth fifth percent -------------------------------------------------------------- 1967 6,827 18,611 29,716 41,576 75,344 120,094 1995 8,350 20,397 34,106 52,429 109,411 188,828 ============================================================== ------------------ HT - Klipsch Synergy Premiere Audio - Heresy, KG4 This message has been edited by crash827 on 08-01-2002 at 08:20 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 Further information on the wage gap and reasons as published by the NY Times in 1997. quote: Today's report, based on United States Census Bureau data for families with children, was the first such report from the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities in five years. Even states that are not as tied to Wall Street, like Arizona, Ohio, West Virginia and California, saw growing gaps in income between the rich and the poor, something the report said was due not only to the stock market boom but to wage stagnation for lower-paid workers, which was tied to such factors as the decline in domestic manufacturing jobs and in unionization. "The growth of the service economy and the decline in manufacturing has meant lower wages for people at the bottom end and middle of the scale," Elizabeth McNichol, one of the authors of the study, said in an interview. "It used to be that when the economy grew, everybody gained, but in the last generation that hasn't been true." Economists say that New York State has magnified several national trends: the soaring financial markets and the success of some professions boosting high-end incomes, while the poor are harmed by the decline in low-skilled jobs like manufacturing and construction, and competition with immigrants for low-level jobs. Now you may believe increasing wages for lower income jobs will result in some miracle. I state simply and pointedly it will result in higher prices and fewer jobs as they continue to move overseas. Solution: more productivity and lower costs. It is insane to believe someone will pay you $18.00/hr to manufacture a product it takes an hour to make and he must sell for $5 or no one will buy it. It is even more ludicrous to suggest the answer is to force him to give his workers a pay raise. Exempt them from taxes. ------------------ HT - Klipsch Synergy Premiere Audio - Heresy, KG4 This message has been edited by crash827 on 08-01-2002 at 08:40 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forresthump2 Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 Geek is correct. The democrats Even have to move away from ideals like MD and the Rad Libs. They must by necessity because they not accepted in a Capaitalistic society. And that's what makes them radical. Vicious spiral eh MD? LOL Ideals like MD and the Rad Left are just that. Ideals. That why he's putting so much effort into this Thread. Its the only audience in America where he can get any response. MUHAHAHA ------------------ Go Forth and Hump the World Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted August 2, 2002 Share Posted August 2, 2002 hi mdeenan, i must have missed it. so your position in a nutshell is government should prevent citizens from purchasing goods from outside the US (via tariffs), regulate the salaries of individuals, and regulate the profits earned by businesses; said regulations to be based on applying social values to every individual or job function in order to determine their social importance and hence earning potential? What about those who do not, can not, or will not work? Do they still draw a check? Additionally, since many jobs are being lost to immigrants, legal and not, right here in the US, do you propose sealing off the borders and preventing their influx? Yeah, it kind of sounded like jelly doughnuts. Still does to a degree. Answer me this if you will: how do you determine these are OUR productivity gains. Increases in GNP are caused by a great many things and labor need not be one of them. Are you also proposing that employees receive pay increases because we had more rain this year, or the machines that replaced them produce more, or we made an accounting change which makes the company look more productive? Are you saying it doesn't matter and the employees should receive not only the fruits of their labor but the fruits their labor had nothing to do with? Look forward to your responses. ------------------ HT - Klipsch Synergy Premiere Audio - Heresy, KG4 This message has been edited by crash827 on 08-02-2002 at 08:18 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted August 2, 2002 Share Posted August 2, 2002 I did not mean my post to be an insult. It was an honest question. Based on your posts that is what it boils down to, am I not correct? I am not disputing the complexities of your ideas. I am asking for an executive summary. There is no need to make something complex when simple will do the trick. I don't listen to talk radio period. ------------------ HT - Klipsch Synergy Premiere Audio - Heresy, KG4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forresthump2 Posted August 2, 2002 Share Posted August 2, 2002 MD Really mean we don't Directly support them with our money for equality, besides buy their products and services if they WORK to provide them. Key word MD uses above is participating. He only wants to provide more money to workers for LESS participation. MD with his shutting down global trade then has all the bases covered for higher Inflation. Here he gets supply side - cost push inflation. Fact is with 94% employment we don't have enough workers to pick up the slack if we buy only from US companies. FE, the steel industy now can only supply 80% of our needs. BTW, W's handout to steel was a pure political yield going along with WHAT THE DEMS WANT, like when Slick Willy went along with Welfare reform. W is not a protectionist or Subsidizer by far. THAT's The Dem/Liberal agenda as MD so display. MD is such a spinmeister hack. LOL Now what MD? You'll probably say Inflation is good. LOL Since we haven't had true bad Inflation since the Carter years we get these yahoos pushing inflationary policy. If any remember stagflation they know that high inflation also causes recession. Fact is Inflation is much more difficult to recover from than a recession. Its a nightmare for the Fed, but then again the Libbies want the Fed to be a cabinet seat under the President. LOL Since MD will not provide his plan Specifics, and only tries to win his losing argument with intellectual arogancy and over complexity, i will outline his plan for him. <Raise the minimum wage and make all workers one big union. In effect everyone will work for the government unless they own a company then the GOV can control their profitabliity by forced wage hikes.> This will send demand-pull inflation through the roof. You have too much money chasing too few goods and services. People have higher incomes but less incentive to produce. Its a bidding process. If people have more money and supply of products stay the same, prices shoot higher. Then the people want more income to pay the higher prices. Never ending spiral of inflation. <Raise tariffs to make our lower cost imports higher priced, US products more competitive AND employ more people.> And then we get retaliation on OUR exports. We wouldn't export anything because we don't have enough workers just to supply America's needs. We lose all the jobs for products that are exported which are the more technical higher paying jobs. US Companies that CAN survive selling only to Americans have no incentive to raise wages. They make more profit. The exporting companies do less business and layoff people. But there's not enough people to just supply America in those lower paying jobs that we export now while we encourage Americans to better themselves for the higher paying good jobs. We would have to open the borders for a massive inflow of low pay immigrants. This is what we call supply or cost-push inflation. The taffifs in effect lower the supply of available labor and resources we now have available with overseas trade. Fewer employees available mean the higher wages raise the cost to companies and they pass it to us the consumer in higher prices. So MD hits us with high inflation from both fronts. He knows most dont understand inflation or Dont remember how terrible it can be. MD is a true opportunist. Seems half way intelligent but his theories cant stand up to the litmus test as a Whole. That's why he attacks each thing out of context to the whole picture. He only show how liberal "intellectuals" spin, spin, spin. How else can you make a case for ideas so foolish. LOL ------------------ Go Forth and Hump the World This message has been edited by forresthump2 on 08-02-2002 at 03:06 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted August 2, 2002 Share Posted August 2, 2002 "MD is such a spinmeister hack. LOL MD is a true opportunist." ----------------- Go Forth and Hump the World I notice that Pornohump accuses everyone else of name calling, but it is mostly him doing the name calling and the spinning and not those he accuses ( except me who think he a liar and hypocrite and lacky parrot, LOL LOL. Why should anyone think anything he says has any credibility? He himself offers nothing in the way of solutions, only that everything is just swell and works itself out. OK, so there are no problems except creative ideas that might improve things. Brilliant! -Cerebrum Clipped and Lobotomized by Right Wind idiots noise. ------------------ Cornwalls currently upgrading to all tube components This message has been edited by Clipped and Shorn on 08-02-2002 at 03:42 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forresthump2 Posted August 2, 2002 Share Posted August 2, 2002 I also have posted the REAL benefits of Global trade and Free Markets. Lower prices and more employment for those who CHOOSE to workand get training for those better jobs. It's all there in my archives. MD and his Marxist thinking wants just higher pay for low pay/skill jobs. In a free market, People CHOOSE those jobs for more than money. Free Society also correct itself. MD and the Democrats want to be GOD. No wonder the Liberals have more aethiests. They want to be the GOD. LOL Neocortex Clipped cant even make a comment on the topic. He a true Liberal that only attacks the messenger and not the issue like Ann Coulter point out in her new book. He should be on the cover. LOL Liberals like him think any new idea is good because its new and might help them escape from their miserable situation. He like MD but in a simple form only has ideals not solutions. He's not worthy debater. More tax cuts and Less GOV. Now that a solution. But MD takes it a step further by smugly putting in some knowledge of things. Case is he only uses idealism and taking things out of context instead of providing the whole plan and picture. He can't debate the inflation issues without out of context and spin. Problem is he can't argue the economics because if his idealogy is presented with clarity and as a whole, then as all can see it's quickly shot down with facts, logic, reasoning. He loses the debate to even a squash playing, Barry White loving, Porn star such as me. Keep up the losing logic and see if you can find another audience among anyone else in America that don't think you are the Left Coast whackos you are. hee-hee ------------------ Go Forth and Hump the World This message has been edited by forresthump2 on 08-02-2002 at 05:02 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forresthump2 Posted August 2, 2002 Share Posted August 2, 2002 MUHAHAHA. I rest my case. MD can't debate with facts, sound reasonimg and logic. Just sidetracks and idealogy. Sorry MD this not about metaphysics. I got some hot blonde ladyfriend that want to talk that right now. And she offers the same as you do to the American people. ------------------ Go Forth and Hump the World Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybergeek Posted August 2, 2002 Share Posted August 2, 2002 I find more irony here. Forrest has said he owns Klipsch, McIntosh and SVS. All-American by choice, not by interference nor cohersion. On the other hand, i'll bet anything more liberals own foreign cars and electronics. No that's the case around Seattle and CA. Saturated with liberals and imports. Live free. ------------------ live long & prosper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted August 2, 2002 Share Posted August 2, 2002 Just because your pet parrot can appear to "talk" or something roughly similiar does not mean she is holding an intelligent conversation with you. I hope you all can see the difference. Cracker wanna cracker? -Mulla Muhahaha Nastyrooten ------------------ Cornwalls currently upgrading to all tube components Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybergeek Posted August 2, 2002 Share Posted August 2, 2002 REPEAL THE CORPORATE INCOME TAX to begin with. Double and triple income tax is something only the Demoncrats could come up with. ------------------ live long & prosper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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