discorules Posted July 23, 2002 Share Posted July 23, 2002 quote: Originally posted by cybergeek: Hey welcome back Forrest. Great to see your return. Although Forrest may be somewhat abrasive, he brings up a good point. Why do liberals as above agree that business and the consumer do a better job at running our economy, yet they support policies for bigger government with more control over our lives? hmmmm. I never argued that business does a better job at running the economy. If I did, show me. In any event there is a role to play by both private and public sector in a sucessful economy in my opinion. This message has been edited by discorules on 07-23-2002 at 02:25 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted July 23, 2002 Share Posted July 23, 2002 I absolutely avoid these threads like the plague, but felt the need to chime in on this one... The more I read Larry's posts the more they just piss me off. Could you be more of a hypocrite? You make it seem as though anybody who didn't go to college (such as myself) does not deserve to make a decent living or God forbid... even prosper. You constantly bring up your 7 years of education like somebody owes you something for it. What about those of us who weren't in a position to go to college? I myself ended up being thrown out of the house the day I turned 18 because my dad simply couldn't afford me anymore (or my 4 sisters who ended up getting the same treatment). He marched me down to the AF recruiter that very day and about 4 weeks later, I was on a plane for San Antonio, Texas. Now granted, I could have gone on to college after my 4 year stint but ended up at Computer Learning Center instead. Twenty years later, I'm still with the same company and still without a college education. The funny thing is we were just a small computer sweatshop trying to survive (made up mostly of CLC grads w/o college educations)... and started hiring college grads with computer degrees. I never saw a more whiny bunch of cry babies in all my life. After four such hires we went back to CLC grads because they worked harder, were more hungry and complained a hell of a lot less. So Larry, please stop feeling sorry for yourself and do your whining elsewhere. We have work to do around here... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted July 23, 2002 Share Posted July 23, 2002 I hear the constipated mathematician worked it out with a pencil, $350 tax refund divided by 12 months of 5 day weeks of 8 hour work days comes to about an 18 cents per hour raise. Wow, that's pretty good. If the refund was $700 that would be about 36 cents an hour. How much was your refund this year? Hey, count your blessing, those Chinese workers would be more than thrilled by this, and finish your vegetables because there are people who are starving. Globalization is good because for the moment your standard of living seems to be a lot better than those workers somewhere else who work for 36 cents a day. I know when I forget the housework my house seems to be cleaner when I compare it to someone who lives in a house with a dirt floor. Counting your blessings is another one of those wise biblical pointers. It is all making sense now. -C&S ------------------ Cornwalls currently upgrading to all tube components This message has been edited by Clipped and Shorn on 07-23-2002 at 01:23 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lne937s Posted July 23, 2002 Author Share Posted July 23, 2002 People take everything too personally. I am trying to look at the big picture- I have no idea what any of your personal experiences are. I have no problem with the uneducated making a decent living, but twice the median per capita income for unskilled labor- that's excessive. There is little reason now that people can not to go to college- it is a decision. Supporting a family would be one reason, but starting one is also a decision. Grants for people from poor families make it easier for them to go to school than people from middle income families whose parents do not support them. I support education on all levels. Tech school is still education and an investment. In Germany, this is a required option if you do not go to college. One way or the other, our math and science education must improve. We must all invest in ourselves and our economy. Call me a whiner or whatever you want, but someone must speak up for the new class of information-based workers. Some people act like educated, straight, white, 20-30 something, males aren't entitled to an opinion. Look at what all that labor "whining" did. Sticking up for yourself can also be seen as whining as well as the majority of comments here- on either side. Anyway, the stock market looks scary, and the US Dollar (down 15% this year) is now worth less than the Euro. more to come- Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted July 23, 2002 Share Posted July 23, 2002 Of course, the flip side with our present government is what do you net after a $.50 or $1.00 direct pay raise after the government takes their federal income tax, social security tax, medicare tax, state income tax, and local income tax. Oh wait, also subtract sales tax for the privelege of spending your money and depending on how you spend it: alcohol tax, cigarette tax, gasoline tax, education tax, road tax, property tax, personal property tax, et al, and do not forget all the various license fees (hidden tax to fool morons) you might be paying. And God Bless you if you live in an idiotic state that has or wants to charge a sales tax on services as well. You guys can argue till you're blue in the face and debate the merits of tax reductions, pay raises, and deficits until hell freezes over but you will still not have an answer because you are trying to answer the wrong question. Bottom line, our government is inept, inefficient, a burden to all men, parasitic and incapable of acting for the benefit of its people rather than its own gain. We have forgotten its purpose. Government administrators believe their job is to provide jobs for the poor, uneducated, and otherwise unemployable - that is not to say ALL employees are such but customer service and efficiency is not high on the list...personnel growth )in numbers) and spending every cent of an allocated budget are; my base of knowledge, I worked for the government at one time. The scariest thing to me is the populace of this country has largely been convinced that a flat tax is undoable or prohibitly expensive, free health care for all citizens is a pipe dream and would never work, college education should be available only to those who can afford it, welfare recipients are lazy, and government should be regulating aspects of our lives the Constitution never afforded them the legal right. Wake up man. We don't pay taxes. The government siezes them before we ever touch our money. The Founding Fathers may not have known about nuclear arms, computers, or a service economy but they damn sure knew government could be oppressive and taxation without representation was evil. They warned us and did their best to prevent it - we simply fell asleep at the wheel. Remember that the next time the government turns one of your "rights" into a privelege or decides you will work for free from now on. End Rant. Resume your math. ------------------ HT - Klipsch Synergy Premiere Audio - Heresy, KG4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybergeek Posted July 23, 2002 Share Posted July 23, 2002 CS: "I hear the constipated mathematician worked it out with a pencil, $350 tax refund divided by 12 months of 5 day weeks of 8 hour work days comes to about an 18 cents per hour raise. Wow, that's pretty good. If the refund was $700 that would be about 36 cents an hour. How much was your refund this year" I was waiting for that Liberal bull. Funny how they can use cumulative effects for tax hikes and whine about those with the deficit, but when it comes to a cumulative effect on our economy when putting a few more dollars in consumers and investors pockets, then its back to how much effect for the individual. Shows the Liberal mind at work. Tax cuts are an economic stimulus. The primary fiscal stimulus the Gov has to offer to the private sector. Liberals look to the Gov for their money. The wiser know that to get more money one must work, and the more economic stimulus the Gov can provide, the better the chance that jobs will be available from the private sector. Keep in mind the employment rate is now about 94%. Also we have the fact that the Democrats put an abrupt halt on more of a tax cut and sooner in the first place. Also THE DEMS put in the kicker that the tax cuts are not permanent. Why is it we get encouragement for cuts in wasteful spending so much more from the GOP side. All the Dems can do is fixate on the deficit being paid currently at astronomically low interest rates. And they do this with nothing but Tax Hikes in mind. Thank god for Al Gore and his brand of thinking. He and his kind of Dems are a godsend for the GOP. Face it, when it comes to sound economic thinking, the Democratic party is a disgrace. ------------------ live long & prosper This message has been edited by cybergeek on 07-23-2002 at 02:41 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discorules Posted July 23, 2002 Share Posted July 23, 2002 quote: Originally posted by cybergeek: Why is it we get encouragement for cuts in wasteful spending so much more from the GOP side. All the Dems can do is fixate on the deficit being paid currently at astronomically low interest rates. And they do this with nothing but Tax Hikes in mind. Thank god for Al Gore and his brand of thinking. He and his kind of Dems are a godsend for the GOP. Face it, when it comes to sound economic thinking, the Democratic party is a disgrace. Ah yes. Is this the mantra I use to hear that if Bill Clinton was out, this economy would really be booming with a republican President. Well now that the all but one half of one branch of the government is controlled by republicans, I can thank them for their sound economic thinking and this bustling economy? I guess I should pump more of my dollars into the stock market, especially those favored by Cheney, shrub, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lne937s Posted July 23, 2002 Author Share Posted July 23, 2002 Perhaps the most scary thing about the economy is what's going to happen in a few years from now. The Baby boomers are at peak earning potential now- what happens when they try to retire? There will be significantly more people not working than working. If people keep living longer, there is no way we can afford to have people retire at 65, unless they budget for it themselves. However, many of their investments are going down the drain. We should be saving up as a country for the inevitable effect of population fluctuations, but instead we have a squandering of money and trillions in unpaid debt. Remember- the "Social Security Trust Fund" is only an analogy- the money actually comes out of annual revenue. The people that are supposed to fund the mass retirement are part of the first generation in American history to make less money than their parents in real terms. How is this going to work? Seniors have always had amazing political power and I'm sure they will work out some kind of government program to keep them from starving to death- but it shouldn't have to come to that. We need to pay off our debts and make an investment in the future now. Or else we will really be hurting. Larry PS- Dollar is plummeting- down 15% this year compared to the Euro, which is now worth more. BMW has increased sales and profit- maybe a good investment even if only for the currency differences. Any other tips? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted July 23, 2002 Share Posted July 23, 2002 Yeah, here's a tip: save some of dem educated dollars sucka. Me and Mike Lindsey ain't fer from tirement. Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybergeek Posted July 23, 2002 Share Posted July 23, 2002 Like I said, more ignorant liberal thinking: "Ah yes. Is this the mantra I use to hear that if Bill Clinton was out, this economy would really be booming with a republican President. Well now that the all but one half of one branch of the government is controlled by republicans, I can thank them for their sound economic thinking and this bustling economy? I guess I should pump more of my dollars into the stock market, especially those favored by Cheney, shrub, etc." Thanks for proving my point to the logical thinking here. Oh and by the way, if must pin everything on the Pres, then please note that the Nas average was down 50% and business spending had fallen off a cliff and both were in well established trends, & all before W took office 1/01. Of course we wouldn't expect a Liberal to understand established economic nor market downtrends now would we? And that corporate, accounting and wall st. antics plus Bin Laden's master plan for 9/11 were all in place long before 1/01. I don't think Liberals realize W has been in office only about 1.5 years. Must seem like a decade to them. ------------------ live long & prosper This message has been edited by cybergeek on 07-23-2002 at 06:45 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted July 23, 2002 Share Posted July 23, 2002 Crash---The United States Government, which you think is oppressive, got so big because United States citizens were being oppressed by or with the connivance of local government and the Federal Government had to step in. We have the NLRB because labor was being oppressed, we have the EEOC and HUD because Blacks and poor people were getting a raw deal and do on. Federal prosecuters go after corrupt local politicians because local States Attorneys won't. Had Conservative Capitalism been capable of solving social problems we wouldn't have needed Big Government. Somebody has to step in to insure justice and social peace when local government refuses to do the job. This is not an argument that Big Federal Government is efficient or altruistic but simply that it has been neccesary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted July 23, 2002 Share Posted July 23, 2002 I am not debating Federal vs. State or local for that matter. I simply state government. People seem to forget that rights not provided to the Federal government nor state governments were left reserved to the people. Those rights are now viewed by the government as priveleges they can rescind. People are merely viewed as serfs in a fiefdom. P.S. I find thinking this is a debate between conservatives and liberals is asinine. Neither of these two viewpoints are capable of solving a damn thing. The real answer will come from someone not constrained by bipartisan politics. ------------------ HT - Klipsch Synergy Premiere Audio - Heresy, KG4 This message has been edited by crash827 on 07-23-2002 at 08:36 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lne937s Posted July 23, 2002 Author Share Posted July 23, 2002 Just a couple things to think about... There is a philosophical perspective that claims that domination is a constant. Government domination vs. corporate domination arguments- pick one or the other. Communism tried to create a society without domination- look how that turned out. If it is popular, it is still domination. Remember Hitler had amazingly high approval ratings and 2/3+ voted to eliminate their voting rights to eliminate him from office. The greatest domination is that in which those being dominated strongly support their domination. Are human beings limited in their ability to think for themselves? I look at Bose and I wonder... Government slows economic growth. It also slows negative economic growth (oxymoron?). Government acts as a buffer. They do not burn the money they take from us in taxes- it reenters the economy slowly. Along the way some vital programs get funded that are not supported by the markets- infrastructure, the environment, defense, education, etc. Along the way some pet projects also get funded, money gets wasted, and some social issues get addressed that many disagree on- social security, welfare, small business programs, medicare, etc. Regardless of where you stand, there need to be some changes and cuts. If you think all private charities address these issues more efficiently, I suggest you look at the budget of the United Way. In high school we raised a lot of money for them and I got to look at their budget. After administration, public awareness (advertising and PR), and fundraising costs- about 15% was going to the sponsored charities. Each of those charities also had administrative costs. Something else to think about- to be a "not for profit" corporation, you are not restricted from turning a profit or restricted in your salaries. You are supposed to keep profits under 15%, but if you go a little over, there really isn't any penalty. just trying to add a new perspective or two to the mix... tell me what your opinions are. I get the feeling that the comments on here are becoming a little more respectful (maybe just wishful thinking)- let's keep it up! Best wishes Larry PS- more investment tips? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted July 24, 2002 Share Posted July 24, 2002 So doing math is liberal bull. Yup, there you go again. -C&S ------------------ Cornwalls currently upgrading to all tube components This message has been edited by Clipped and Shorn on 07-24-2002 at 01:16 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discorules Posted July 24, 2002 Share Posted July 24, 2002 Well, I could address/attack your points cyber but it's late and I'm bored with it right now. I'm sure we'll be back at this. One thing I agree with you on, I not only think liberals think shrub has been in an eternity, I believe most americans feel the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forresthump2 Posted July 24, 2002 Share Posted July 24, 2002 quote: Originally posted by discorules: Well, I could address/attack your points cyber but it's late and I'm bored with it right now. I'm sure we'll be back at this. One thing I agree with you on, I not only think liberals think shrub has been in an eternity, I believe most americans feel the same. Ahh Yes run like a coward Duck. MUHAHAHA W has 70% Approval. Another Liberal Mind at work. 30% is Most Americans. HAHA You in for a big suprise Libby. The GOP have learned your tactics and the People have learned the Libby BS. ------------------ Go Forth and Hump the World Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted July 24, 2002 Share Posted July 24, 2002 Whatever the political nuance of those in power or those who would be, it is clear that the "social safety net" constructed by various governments have failed for the many who fall through and the masses that must pay for it. One glimmer of hope stands out in the above Crash-course in political-economic theory... that there may be a solution beyond the grasp of bi-partisan bickering and compromise that may yet surface. Such an event would be tatamount to the collective "brain trust" that empowered the framers of the Constitution. Yet, the question arises, how well would Jefferson, et al, be received by today's politically correct standards? Add that to the "Bedrock of Capitalism"... stock market's that are more likely to crash because of "unrealistic expectation" rather than "realistic performance" and the economic funding engine also becomes suspect at best. Fortunately, there has been room for a maverick like PWK to rise to the occasion... giving us the opportunity to find respite in the joy of an earful of Klipsch... instead of the nightly news. -HornED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soundthought Posted July 25, 2002 Share Posted July 25, 2002 I agree, since the recent elimination of what's construed as the bourgeoisie, one generalized rule has become prevalent over all others. The Golden Rule: He who has the gold makes the rule! Take it for what it's worth. ------------------ You should of heard just what I've seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted July 25, 2002 Share Posted July 25, 2002 Interesting how so many Americans keep taking it more and more in the shorts (mass layoffs, mass ripoffs of their savings, increased unemployment, etc. etc.), to say nothing of the general downturn in lifestyle (outmoded roads, wasting hours in traffic congestion, more work and less play, increaed living expenses etc. etc.) and how little we seem to hear about this from the point of view of the should- be angry victims. What I seem to hear around here is how any complaints, criticisms, attemped analyses of the situation, thinking creatively outside dogma or cliches, or gods forbid suggestions for theoretically possible remedies are all Liberal Bull. Amazing how the rich and powerful have managed to essentially create a convenient army of dittoeheads amongst many of the not-so-rich to do their bidding without realizing they are shooting themselves in the foot in the process. Right, we all could potentially be rich - just around the corner.....and just how are we supposed to do that these days (since not all of us want to start our own radio shows or porno companies or manufacturing plants in Taiwan as opposed to doing research, playing music, educating children, or creating sculpture or documentary films)? At what point do we say we have had enough? Where is the bottom? Is a real depression a possibility these days? What will it take to put a third way political alternative into reality? I don't have answers, but I believe in the idea of new ideas or at least the idea of clear explanations of the problems and new possibilities for solutions. The old stuff does not seem to be working so well any more. Aren't you tired of it? -C&S ------------------ Cornwalls currently upgrading to all tube components This message has been edited by Clipped and Shorn on 07-27-2002 at 03:28 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybergeek Posted July 25, 2002 Share Posted July 25, 2002 MD, You have to major flaws in your biased thinking, mot to mention numerous others. First, your statement that we will never have a surplus is a guess and cannot be proven. Merely, wishful thinking on your part by chance. You give no credence to that tax cuts have & will provide economic stimulus. Can you prove that the economy would not be yet worse off if the tax cuts would not have taken place? Can you prove that the tax cuts will not do so in the future as they put more $ in our pockets, though i know you don't want to notice it. Again, think cumulative effect on our economy, not the measly amount you wish to ignore now in your own pocket due to tax cuts. If folks put down the amount they have in tax cuts that means they're not doing very well in most cases. Think cumulative effect from those who are productive & pay most of the taxes. Two, thanks to your Dem Liberal buddies the tax cuts are currently not permanent. So you're just flat out wrong on that. Please write your congresspeople folks & get these permanent so they will continue to make us richer while improving the economy. ------------------ live long & prosper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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