cybergeek Posted July 25, 2002 Share Posted July 25, 2002 And BTW, the health of the Economy is by far the greatest determinate of Gov Tax Revenues. Don't let the Democrats fool you into thinking that tax rates are the biggest factor. Raise taxes on us in a slow economy. Takes an awful amount of spin to make that plausible, but leave it up to the Democrats to spin that into sound policy. LOL ------------------ live long & prosper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lne937s Posted July 25, 2002 Author Share Posted July 25, 2002 Mdeneen- historical materialism isn't a very new idea and it has its flaws. Neo-marxists need to rethink a few things. Here is another perspective- technology mandates the type of society we have. In feudal times- production was reliant on independant units that had diverse tasks. This is because the technology of the time made the creation and transportation of food very labor intensive. Feudalism was created through improvements in technology (roads, cities, civilization) as a dominant means to organize these independant units- leading to benefits as well as costs. Families were also a necessity- children were the source of labor and a means to provide for you when you get old- and therefore an asset. Now, children are very costly and provide no economic benefit. In addition, since child birth is no longer a means to success, home automation reduces the time needed to be spent at home, and pre-packaged food is the norm- women do not need to be in the subserviant roles they have had for most of recorded history. In addition, the family is also not a necessity- look at how many successfull marriages are out there. The improvements in technology lead to Industrialized Societies. Labor became specialized, therefore requiring more control and coordination to make all the pieces fit together. Jefferson was opposed to industrialization and everything that went with it- centralized banking, corporations, loans, stock markets- he wanted everbody to have individual farms (in control of the means of production). Technology made this an inefficient use of people's time- why have everyone work on farms when 5% can do the job? However, as much as the concepts on this board are based in it- we are leaving industrial society behind. Information is becoming a top commodity. Perceptions are becomming more important than material costs in determining prices ($60 bottles of perfume with ingredients that cost just pennies- much less than the liscensing agreements or the packaging). Manufacturing value will become more and more based on engineering and refinement than cost of raw materials. The concepts of the last era are quickly loosing their relevance- including historical materialism. Everything is much more complex than dialectic oppositions- it would be easy if things were that simple. In addition to the technology of sales, marketing, production and information- the borders that seperate our countries are falling through communication and transportation technology. We cannot think of how our government and economy work in a closed system anymore- how do our laws relate to other countries. Be scared about our deflating Dollar in addition to the market. Historically, their are two ways to create a dominant society. 1- use tyranical government/industry to force everyone to work 60+ hours a week. I don't think most Americans want to do that. 2- exploit other countries. We can do this using economic means. If the value added by foriegn labor exceeds the money being sent overseas- that's a good thing for us. It also creates sales jobs and allows us to concentrate on more advanced ventures. However, there needs to be superiority in thinking by the dominant country if superior, direct military domination doesn't exist- or the weaker will start to take over. Look at us and the English empire (traditional empirialism) or Japan becoming an economic powerhouse (economic empirialism). However, we will need to invest substantially in R&D, IR, education, etc., to stay ahead. There will always be dominators and dominated. Your choices are: dominant government, dominant corporations, dominant ideology, dominant technology, etc. Do you want the dominated in this country or outside of it- leaving us the dominators? Is American ready for an official global empirialism policy? The means of domination may change along with our opinions about it. However, it will continue- human beings are pack animals- their will always be a lead dog. Jefferson recommended constant revolution- but, in a way, keeping people always fighting is also domination. Our goal is to find a form of dominant relationship that promotes the needs of this country to the greatest benefit and leaves the people happy. What makes a society happy goes way beyond materialism, which (once you surpass subsistance) only has value we assign to it. Being happy with accomplishment requires a challenge, goal, strategy to accomplish it, and it's completion- if we eliminate all struggle that will not exist. As human beings, the things we enjoy are often challenges- look at sports. On an abstract level, our goal should be to create a society where the challenges we present people are the most involving and rewarding possible- like playing a game. Just a few more ideas- Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybergeek Posted July 25, 2002 Share Posted July 25, 2002 MD, Big problem with your reasoning is that the Gov doesn't control pay except for the relatively minor effects of minimum wage and government jobs. I know you mentioned closing the borders and that makes as much sense as a tax hike. Tax cuts do have the same motivational effects as a pay raise and, as I said, a positive effect on the economy. Now, when did the personal income tax begin? 1934? How did the Gov ever function before that? Lordy. Eliminate income taxes and replace with excise & sales taxes. That's the ticket. ------------------ live long & prosper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lne937s Posted July 25, 2002 Author Share Posted July 25, 2002 Tax cut or pay raise- what difference does it make? If the investors get the money, it gets spent and goes back into the economy. If the government gets the money, it gets spent and goes back into the economy. The question is- who do you want to have control of it? If you raise taxes and reduce benefits for the poor, people will have to work harder for a living. The result of this harder work is growth in GDP. Ideally- the government can then invest the money in areas that develope our future strength. The same could be said for lowering wages and increasing investment in technological advancement. Perhaps a bigger question is whether you evaluate the economy based on how it affects people individually or how it affects the big number. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybergeek Posted July 25, 2002 Share Posted July 25, 2002 Md, Again a little problem with your logic. Its called freedom and if you can dig it, it transcends over to everything including our economic system. As both a business owner and a consumer, noone can tell me whom I have to buy from and where I can invest. And its the same as telling me whom i can sell to because if we shut our doors to imports I sure as hell won't be able to sell internationally. Its called retaliation. Btw, I determine my own "wage" just as everyone has the freedom to do as free individuals. Why do liberals insist on personal freedom for immorality yet when it comes to economics the Gov is to be responsible. Though I'm sure North Korea or Cuba would welcome your brand of thinking with open arms. Sorry you've hit a personal roadblock and feel you need the Gov's help, but hopefully you find the power within to go forth and determine your own satisfaction. ------------------ live long & prosper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted July 26, 2002 Share Posted July 26, 2002 Oh my, I like mdeenan's philosophy (concern for fellow man, etc) but his economic understanding is misguided at best. There are two serious issues with your mathematics: 1. Bill isn't going to pull up roots nor is he going to let his gross margin shrink. He is going to increase the costs of his products. The companies who purchase his products are going to increase the cost of their products - moreso because Joes cousins got raises at their companies as well. Joe can now purchase less with his additional money than he could previously. This, my friend, IS inflation. 2. Joes pay raise just landed his butt in a higher tax bracket. Hey, we aren't using flat taxes here; you make more we want a higher percentage. So Joe's take home ain't quite what he thought it was gonna be. The conservative side of my nature (that side that dislikes big government) must also mention a complementary, real-world result of Joe's pay raise. Some dumbass Democrat is going to recieve a report showing Americans are making more money on average than they were prior to your pay raise plan. He is then gonna advocate higher taxes to fund some other stupidASS pork-barrel project. Identify the social programs you think are necessary. Consider the welfare of your fellow citizens. BUT, please, leave economic policies to economists. BTW, Economics 101 will tell you arguing over taxes vs. deficits is utter nonsense. Care to explain why? ------------------ HT - Klipsch Synergy Premiere Audio - Heresy, KG4 This message has been edited by crash827 on 07-26-2002 at 12:31 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybergeek Posted July 26, 2002 Share Posted July 26, 2002 MD, and yours are the same old soundbites of Tom & Dick and the Liberals including the Liberal dominated mainstream media. If you ideas are so novel why aren't you working with the DNC? LOL And if you're truely a lover of mankind why do you stop at our borders. Should not foreign workers enjoy somewhat higher incomes than f.e. $1/day? Ever hear of priming the pump? Let them have those low paying jobs while we strive for the higher paying jobs. Your logic only provides a copout for those making minimum wage or overpaid union workers not going out to better themselves and work harder. You even support above not working harder. You have obviously developed a doom & gloom outlook on your own financial future. Glad you're in the very slim minority. But with your attitude you should be supporting LESS Gov interference in the private sector. Gov just doesn't mix with business, economics & common sense. Take a little risk, start up your own company & see how it works. ------------------ live long & prosper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted July 26, 2002 Share Posted July 26, 2002 CyberGeek--You're a geek allright. Liberal press? The Press is owned by OWNERS you and owners aren't Liberal. Convincing people the press is Liberal is another trick of the Rich, one you've fallen for. "Overpaid" Union workers? Risktaking? Tell you what, you come up on the iron with me for a day and I'll show you some risktaking, not with your time or money but with your life. And if you actually have the balls to get up there, and spent a day rigging, fitting, bolting, rattling and welding (of course it would take you several years to learn the skills but let's pretend) while hanging like a monkey or standing on an 8" I-beam I gaurantee you'll end the day with different ideas about "risktaking" and a fair day's wages than you have now. But I doubt you have the moxie to hang with the men, I don't think you can hold your mud, I think all you're good for is typing on a keyboard, giving yourself a cute little nickname and talking about things you don't understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybergeek Posted July 26, 2002 Share Posted July 26, 2002 Funny how an otherwise reasonable person like TB goes rabid when you mention any idea toward taking away the artificial supports to his pay. Earth to TB. You wouldn't be paid nearly as much in a true free market. And globalization is the key to free markets and a way around artificial wage supports that only make things more expensive & harm our ability to compete in the free markets. Without politics and the support of the Democratic and Socialist/Communist Parties, unionism would be extinct. MD, maybe the reason you hear what i'm saying so much is because it makes the most common sense. Maybe the reason nobody but the whackos mention your policies is because they are bad. ------------------ live long & prosper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted July 26, 2002 Share Posted July 26, 2002 hi mdeenan, first, i wish to note that I have not called you a liberal period, in case your note was aimed or included me. second, perhaps a definition of inflation is in order: Inflation: The percentage increase in cost over a period of time, usually a year, of the items people typically buy on a regular basis, such as food, clothes and groceries. my post on your tax cut vs. pay raise is indeed correct and is the real world result of your proposals. indeed if every American made 150K annually, the cost of milk would rise to $25/gal and housing would begin at 750K; if average income increases then average costs increase. your post only partially covers ONE of the factors of inflation and your understanding of the FED limits HOW it effects inflation or inflation control. the supply of money is a factor in inflaction because more available money results in a declining value of that money, hence I want more for the same product because it is worth less. the fed also controls inflation, not by increasing the supply of money, but the cost of that money. if my interest rates are lower, it costs me less to spend that money. I achieve a greater ROI. you completely ignore this or misunderstand it. you are correct. America is not run based simply on sound economic policy; that, however, is no reason not to suggest it shouldn't be. Corporations operate frequently in much the same manner bidding projects that are certain monetary failures simply because there is some other intangible benefit. the difference is they are profit-motivated and so do not engage in such activities recklessly while the govt. will do so. in short, there are certain functions of govt. that have a socially redeeming value and are essential - unfortunately, far too many of the funded projects are wasteful, pork-barrel spending that is payback for helping someone get into office. further, govt. employees don't have a lot of motivation to be productive. productivity, by the way, should be the determining factor of someones wages and not some artificially set limit that is misguided in its attempts to provide a closing of the gaps between classes. do you want to borrow those economic books? ------------------ HT - Klipsch Synergy Premiere Audio - Heresy, KG4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybergeek Posted July 26, 2002 Share Posted July 26, 2002 Md: "When I owned my own manufacturing company, I paid every worker far above the minimum wage even though I did not have to. I sought out the best workers, and gave them the best pay they could earn for their skill level in our local area." OK then great. Thanks for supporting freedom in pay with no Gov intervention. You can create your own tarrifs then. Higher prices. LOL Sorry I had you pegged for a populist. Now its obvious you instead have the I'm rich enough to be a Liberal/Economic Socialist mentality. ------------------ live long & prosper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybergeek Posted July 26, 2002 Share Posted July 26, 2002 Oh TB, the press workers are pure liberal all in all. They hate the moral majority and attach it to the GOP. One would have to be a brainwashed gimp to not realize that the mainstream media has a heavy liberal bias. That or they're Liberals just going along with the Liberal scheme. But the People are wising up now. You'll see. LOL ------------------ live long & prosper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted July 26, 2002 Share Posted July 26, 2002 Geek---I speak the truth. You're the one who needs a message from Earth if you think you can ever support economics from politics. Christ man, what do you think politics is really about if not money and how the pie gets cut-up? What kind of nonsense are they teaching you in Social Studies out there in Whitebread land? My Union is not an artificial thing but a very real one made of very real people. We have a political clout and we use it, so what do you expect us to do, kiss the Bosses *** and shuffle away content with what he gives us? Besides, Unions ARE a part of the market, it's undeniable. To rid the market of Unions would take government intervention in the marketplace, aren't you against that? Besides, it's better to have angry working people joining Unions and working for peaceable change through negotiation than running around formenting Red Revolution, lynching people in Lexuses and giving guys like you tumbril rides to the guillotine. And given the American Working Class'es penchant for high-powered rifles and carrying pistols everywhere they go perhaps you'd best just leave us alone in peace. Many studies have shown that Union tradesmen are more productive and do better work than non-union, this only makes sense as in a free-market the smartest and hard working doing a certain type of work will go where the money and conditions are best--a Union. You know the laws of economics don't only apply to executives. You talk theory, I talk the real world and how it works. I know what my interests are and I know how to go about working towards them. And like I said, if you spent a day doing what I do you'd have a different perspective. What's telling is that you judge who is "overpaid" and who isn't, like you were qualified. You know a real man never raps the other guy's living or resents it that another guy has it made. I come to the defense of the mechanism that has put me in a position where I "have it made" but I never begrudge another guy's having it made. Maybe you do because you don't have it made, maybe you feel a little anxious about yourself and where you fit-in. I've known a lot of guys with big money; brokers, lawyers, businessmen, none of them resented that I had it made on my terms just as they had it made on theirs. I think you've no moxie, are not a stand-up-guy and you'd give somebody up in a minute. As for the "Liberal" press, when do you see them fighting for true, hardcore economic Liberal issues such as reform of labor law and government health care, you know, things that would actually cost the vested economic interests some money? No, they often go on about Gay rights, Minority rights, gun-control hate crimes and other things the monied interests consider harmless. I mean having Gay Rights never cost a businessman any money did it? Why would he be against it, it's no skin off his nose. But making it easier for Unions to organize, that would cost somebody money wouldn't it? No, on economic issues, the only ones that really mean a damn thing, the Press is firmly in the pocket of Business. The "Social" Liberal thing is just a blind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted July 26, 2002 Share Posted July 26, 2002 Mmmmdenteen, 1) your argomentz are cleer and knowlidgiable. 2) you make me to read and try compruhend. 3) this hurtz, I am not used it, I allready have fixed ideas. 4) therefore, you must be trying make me feel stupid and igorent. 5) therefore you are a libby canned peach, commie, pinko, socialist, feminist, enviroonmantalist and all those things we like to now make sound dirty. 6) we, by devinition, will never change our minds in spite of knowing about what lemmings naturallly do. 7) I need good grade in this class, could you please give me a "A" anyway, or my parents will kill me. -Buck Springer ------------------ Cornwalls currently upgrading to all tube components This message has been edited by Clipped and Shorn on 07-26-2002 at 02:25 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted July 26, 2002 Share Posted July 26, 2002 Buck, is cyberknot your illegitimate child? Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted July 26, 2002 Share Posted July 26, 2002 Like cheap and fast junk food, we like it but we secretly know it is bad for us. Those cheap prices out there.....you like them, but you kind of suspect there are HIDDEN COSTS which are camouflaged in the process....meanwhile the environment goes to hell and we rarely see that the hidden costs are taking a huge toll. Everytime you buy some clothes or other stuff and think, how can they or anyone possibly make this thing so cheap.....start contemplating what will be the eventual toll on your lifestyle from the hidden costs involved. Somehow I think this is related to the discussion. Too good to be true something for nothing.....just wait and see.... in fact you may not have to wait too much longer......the laws of economic thermodynamics are catching up to the scam......only you, through human creativity can reverse the entropy...but you gottawanna. When chaos is maxed it will be very hard to extract any more energy from the system....there is an obscure connexion here, but I will let you see it for yourself.....basically what I am saying is that there is a useful analogy to all the implications of thermodynamics......like.....there is a ton of energy out there in the ocean.....think how much energy we would have to play with if we just lower the temperature of the ocean by a couple of degrees.......etc. our economy being run like a perpetual motion machine...... impossible..... -Cryptic and Scorned ------------------ Cornwalls currently upgrading to all tube components Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybergeek Posted July 26, 2002 Share Posted July 26, 2002 The best social study to do here is why the Klipsch forum is overrun with Liberal Socialists or the same that claim not to be but think just the same. LOL 2 guesses here: 1) Klipsch is the speaker for the working man - best value for the money. 2) the same guys that look to the Gov and unions for handouts obviously have a lot of free time on their hands. Here's the real kicker. Klipsch LLC is non-union. God bless America. LOL Now if spending by Gov was cut down to the vital expenses necessary only to protect people from external elements, & not themselves as with social programs pushed by democrats and liberals so they more control people's lives. Then at that time eliminate the fed income tax and replace it w/ tariffs, excise & sales taxes only for the bare essentials. Same way more or less it was at the turn of the 1900s before the Socialists conditioned the nonproductive income tax on into the psyche of this country. Be free comrades. LOL ------------------ live long & prosper This message has been edited by cybergeek on 07-26-2002 at 03:53 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discorules Posted July 26, 2002 Share Posted July 26, 2002 quote: Originally posted by cybergeek: Same way more or less it was at the turn of the 1900s before the Socialists conditioned the nonproductive income tax on into the psyche of this country. Be free comrades. LOL Hey Cyber. Do yourself a big favor and read about turn of the century (1900s) working conditions. If you do, you'll see why we can thank unions for some of the work conditions you take for granted. Why government regulations came to be to avoid things like child labor and hazardous working conditions. You will also see the basis as to why various anti-trust laws came to be. Let me add that the folly in my view of some libertarians and free market thinkers is that they don't see the exploitative nature of human beings. For the same reasons we have checks and balances in our government, we need them in our capitalist free market system. The common thread in all of these systems is the nature of human beings within them who have amassed a certain level of power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLOOMIS914 Posted July 26, 2002 Share Posted July 26, 2002 Crash and Cybergeek, Thanks for trying to explain the correct definition of inflation to Mdeneen and the rest of these liberals. Mdeneen- If raises are given equally relative to profession, the cost of goods and services will rise in a proportionate fashion......Call it whatever you want but anyone with half a brain calls this inflation. Prices/costs will rise as we just raise everyone's pay. Just plain ignorant thinking otherwise. Tbrennan---"Studies have shown union workers to be more productive than non-union workers..." In your dreams!!!!!!!!! Who in there right mind would belong to the union if they truly wanted to work hard and have advancement opportunities??? The Union's (today) protect the lazy and guarantee employment and wages through collective bargaining and the grievance policies. If I want to succeed in life, the last thing I want to do is hitch my wagon to 5, 10, 500, or 2,500 other workers wagon and have us all viewed as "equal". It is the non-union employees (example DCX workers in Vance, AL) that truly have the opportunity to succeed and grow personally, professionally and your gonna hate me but financially. What incentive does the average union employee have to work harder??? Please enlighten me/us. Is there non-union management positions awaiting those who buck the Union "pace" or culture? Regarding the Liberal Media--With the exception of Fox News/Rupert Murdoch, our media is the biggest bunch of whining, left-wing liberals to exist. Majority of our news media loves to bash/hate big business and always has a heart-wrenching story about the most recent job layoffs, etc...Anyone who thinks the media is slanted towards business needs to wake up. Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Bill O'reilly and Fox are the only hope the Conservatives have....fortunately those 4 combined kick the collective liberal media's ***!! This thread is hopeless and in the spirit of democracy I vote we end it. I've done my part the past week to boost the economy and bought another KLF-C7 for a total of three C7's in my house and a Parasound 6-channel Amp to further my HT hobby. Mdeneen- I can now sit/walk/stand anywhere in my house and listen to Rush Limbaugh, Fox News, Porn movies, MLB Game of the week, Sean Hannity and when I'm really feeling cheeky I put on Phil Donahue and laugh my *** off ;-) ------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikekid Posted July 26, 2002 Share Posted July 26, 2002 I'm with ya Brett. Lets kill this thread...and these topics too. Usually with these kind of topics, they don't "enlighten" anyone, they only piss each other off! One of my hunting buddies and I think very differently on these type of things (he leans more liberal, I conservative) We have agreed to NOT discuss these topics due to it winding up in a pissing contest. We both have better things to do... Like talking KLIPSCH!!!!!!!!!!! Take care all Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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