Economy- about to really hit the fan?

[TBrennan]

Bloom---You are woefully ignorant of how things work in Unions. Of course management comes from the ranks of the Union workers. If you're doing an exceptional job you're made an offer by management and you move up. All the superintendants and project managers for the contractors I work for came from the ranks of the Boilermakers, Pipefitters and Ironworkers. Where in the Hell do you think they'd come from, Harvard Business School? And the better you work the higher you go within the Union too. Our Union supplies the foremen and general foremen on the job, if you're good you go out as a pusher or GF and make more money. I've turned down offers to go into management because I prefer working out of the Hall and I especially like going out as the Steward. And I'd have to give up my Union office, that I'd never do (unless I'm voted out of it).

Union jobs pay better money than non-union, as such they attract smarter and harder working guys. Talent follows money, this is indisputable and is a Right Wing article of faith, your side's argument. Our union engages in the practice of "stripping". Non-union contractors usually have a few key guys who show the dummies what to do and baby-sit them. The union approaches these key guys and offers them Union cards, usually a slot in the apprenticeship, they usually accept. I'm an apprentice teacher and several of my guys were formerly non-union and are glad to be Union. They make more money and have more control over their lives. This is exactly as Conservative, free-market theory would predict, talent chasing money. We don't take dumb guys into our program and we weed-out the lazy ourselves.

Listen pal, I know the contractors, I've sat across from them at the negotiation table and partied with them at banquets and picnics. They're all very happy with the shake they're getting from the Boilermakers and figure their money is well spent, they have an intelligent, well trained, hard-working work force that can solve problems on the job without bothering them. They all make lots of money from our labors as well they should.

I'm tired of these political arguements too but I can't let ignorance such as yours go unanswered. You argue by assertion only and I've shown you some facts. Not that I expect that to make any difference to anybody that believes the Big Lies they've been fed, that revels in the false pride of being a macho right-winger while embracing the very elements that are sticking him in the *** and villifying those whose refuse to bend over and get stuck. That's what really sticks in your craw eh? You're content to be a jerk and can't stand it that others aren't and are standup guys with loyalty and courage. Hits at the very conception of what manhood really is eh?

This message has been edited by TBrennan on 07-27-2002 at 12:34 AM

[Clipped and Shorn]

{The best social study to do here is why the Klipsch forum is overrun with Liberal Socialists or the same that claim not to be but think just the same. LOL}

and here I was thinking the forum was overrun with Conservative Right Wing reactionary anti-intellectual dittoeheads wishing Bush was called King.

Methinks you maybe forgot the comma:

"The best social study to do here is why the Klipsch forum is overrun with Liberal Socialists or the same that claim not to be, but think, just the same. LOL"

Yes, I think, just the same, and believe that this is a darn good thing.

Seems that the mere process of "thinking" triggers disdain amongst the radio-bred megadittoeheads, and immediately a barrage of right-wing radio cliche psuedo-defenses and indiscriminate name calling predictably comes up.

Without intelligence and/or creative thinking we would not have Klipsch speakers and/or any other cool stuff. I don't think we would be here celebrating the "accomplishments" of anti-thinking dittoeheads, who do not create but only reiterate.

It was Liberals and other progressive thinking individuals who fomented the revolution that founded this country, you Conservatives favored the monarchy and still apparently do.

Creativity is liberal and progressive or revolutionary almost by definition.

At least we all learned a lot about our political antitheses in all of this and just what makes them tick or tock, , something that will come in handy, I am sure, in future strategies.

-C&S

Klipsch is not really the ultimate common demoninator here, it is just a good ------------------

Cornwalls

currently upgrading

to all tube components

This message has been edited by Clipped and Shorn on 07-27-2002 at 03:51 AM

[Mikekid]

And STILL, time and effort wasted away!

[Clipped and Shorn]

Good thinking is never a waste of time, there are more here than just the stone cavernous minds that would believe that. The precision and clarity of mdeneen's expositions here are comparable to his totally useful electronic troubleshooting. The iq track record is consistent.

Gathered and saved to a folder, his work already done here may prove to be useful again in a wider future context. I am not sure you can say the same for the attempts to counter him. Those would look more to be just the same stuff one hears all the time on reiteradio. This is a significant qualitative difference....apples and plastic spoons.

-c&s

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Cornwalls

currently upgrading

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[Mikekid]

My mind has not been changed to anyone elses way of thinking...thus....a waste of time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[fini]

Mikekid- Hang in there, buddy! Your mind might change eventually (maybe by page 6 or 7)! Keep reading! It's good for you!

fini

[Clipped and Shorn]

"My mind has not been changed to anyone elses way of thinking...thus....a waste of time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Then why waste more time even bothering to mention this, we all knew that and who cares anyway... that you have no ability to even possibly comprehend anything from another's point of view.

They must be giving points for mental rigidity in the Rush megaditto club. OK.

-c&s

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Cornwalls

currently upgrading

to all tube components

[T2K]

Bloomis:

"It is the non-union employees (example DCX workers in Vance, AL) that truly have the opportunity to succeed and grow personally, professionally and your gonna hate me but financially.

What incentive does the average union employee have to work harder??? Please enlighten me/us. Is there non-union management positions awaiting those who buck the Union "pace" or culture"

As far as the Vance/non-Union comment goes, you don't know what you're talking about.

If non-Union workers, such as yourself, have such opportunity for success, why are you so filled with hatred for Union workers?

At my place of employment, Union employees are generally not interested in management positions. Most can't afford the pay cut.

One more thing. Union productivity has increased at such a pace at my place of employment that there is an excess of Union employees. In my craft, 56% of the Union employees are not working. You could say we worked ourselves right out of a job! The company pays them $40,000 a year with full benefits to stay home though.

Keith

[edster00]

I have studiously avoided this subject but I'll jump in for 1 post. Here are a couple of my favorite quotes:

"America's abundance was created not by public sacrifices to "the common good," but by the productive genius of free men who pursued their own personal interests and the making of their own private fortunes. They did not starve the people to pay for America's industrialization. They gave the people better jobs, higher wages and cheaper goods with every new machine they invented, with every scientific discovery or technological advance -- and thus the whole country was moving forward and profiting, not suffering, every step of the way."

"The government consists of a gang of men exactly like you and me. They have, taking one with another, no special talent for the business of government; they have only a talent for getting and holding office. Their principal device to that end is to search out groups who pant and pine for something they can't get and to promise to give it to them. Nine times out of ten that promise is worth nothing. The tenth time is made good by looting A to satisfy B. In other words, government is a broker in pillage, and every election is sort of an advance auction sale of stolen goods."

I had always heard the saying:

"when you are in your 20's if you aren't a liberal you don't have a heart, when you are in your 40's if you aren't a conservative you don't have a brain."

This message has been edited by edster00 on 07-27-2002 at 09:47 PM

[forresthump2]

I see still going around in circles. That the real goal of the Liberals. Confuse or attack the otherside.

Like CerebrumClipped&Shorn. He has to attack even the use of a comma. LOL This idiot CC&S should be the posterchild on Ann Coulter's new book. Tee-hee-hee

MD comtinue to talk jibberish with no concrete soulutions or action plan. Where the beef MD? Raise tariffs IN ADDITION to the Too high income taxes? Raise our prices even More than already with Union and Gov regulation already doing that.

Like Cyber say all that do is cause retaliation and meltdown in global trade like Cyber says. MD make the false assumption that all we do is import from cheap labor countries. Well first if wages here weren't so artificial high then we could be more competitive with our exports.

The biggy is that like Cyber say you have to prime the pump. How are foreigners going to buy more of our products and services if they don't have the incomes to do it? We buy more from them then they have money to buy more from us. Keeping them poor and desperate only hurts our exports and causes them to go to things like war and terrorism. We are the world leader and its up to us to get things going, not shut them down.

What MD proposes is like us putting a special sales tax only on what the minorities make for us here in the US.

Keep them in their place and limit their opportunity. But if they can sell fairly their incomes go up and they can buy more and they have more opportunity. Then the consumers have lower prices and shareholders have a bigger market to sell to those with higher incomes.

MD is offering only a form of Populism in sheep's clothing. Free competition and trade is best for all because what go around comes around. MD plan is just a

backhanded way to take money out of shareholders and consumers pockets and put into US union types who will then get far more than their worth in the free markets.

Make no mistake, MD is a left coast Liberal no matter what he calls himself. He only seeks to artificially redistribute wealth to those who don't really earn it.

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Go Forth and Hump the World

[Clipped and Shorn]

PornoHump understands nothing and is the one talking monotonous alarming jibberish. You've made that abundantly clear in your weird brand of fake whitebread hip-hop pidgin English and equivalent underlying misinformed attitude. We didn't miss you. By the way you really don't have a sense of humor. LOL LOL LOL

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Cornwalls

currently upgrading

to all tube components

[forresthump2]

See look at CC&S. Nothing to say about the Topic at hand. He just a little man. A little AlSore Minnie Me

cheering on his Liberal side. Pathetic Communist midget. He must look like Herve Villachez. Hee-hee

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Go Forth and Hump the World

[Mikekid]

As far as I am concerened, this CRAP has tarnished this BB. It USED to be a much more pleasant place to visit. Wow, clipped and mdeenan sure put me in my place! Too bad they are pissing all over this BB.

Take care all

Mike

[forresthump2]

Then STB say that most managers come from unions. That a laugh. Most union workers Don't want to move up at all but just want to put in their hours and have their job guarnteed by union facism and not for merit, and Earn more than they worth in a real free market while they sit on their a$$. LOL

We get higher Prices and they get overpaid. Its up to the Gov to protect worker safety, not the unions. They just sit on their a$$ and collect their dues. LOL

The losers in society Already have a Union in GOV. It called the Democratic Party. hee-hee

Mikekid, these guys are only smug losers who care only about pushing a Democrat agenda. That more important to them than anything.

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Go Forth and Hump the World

This message has been edited by forresthump2 on 07-27-2002 at 04:38 PM

[anarchist]

uh, oh, i must enter the fray again,

mdeenan states:

quote:

---

It could be $200 to workers, $100 to taxes and $700 to owners, right? Or, it might be $210 to workers, $150 to taxes, and $640 to owners.

Here's what you simply fail to get: Neither of the above answers, nor any of the other possible answers HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH INFLATION.

And it has nothing to do with inflation because in all cases the "wealth" created is equal to the "monetized value" of that wealth. Period.

---

You are correct. None of those answers nor any of your scenarios has anything to do with inflation. Inflation is not related to wealth. Inflation is the cost of goods increasing faster than the purchasing power of the consumer. It occurs when money has less value (based on supply) and it occurs when the 'costs' of that money increase. It is that simple. There is no 'magic' to it nor is 'wealth' part of the equation. Period.

I strongly urge you to consult those economics 101 books.

Your posts are indeed interesting (not economically sound but everybody has their shortcomings) and redistribution of wealth is indeed a topic with major implications regarding the nature of man. Your posts do have me confused though. You seem to indicate an interest in taking from the rich and giving to the poor. Noble. But, you seem to equate giving to the poor with allowing the government to tax you more and increase their regulation over our lives.

Let us not argue inflation - you are clearly wrong here, but instead please expand on exactly what your viewpoints on redistribution of wealth are and the limitations you would impose on government regulation.

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HT - Klipsch Synergy Premiere

Audio - Heresy, KG4

[anarchist]

hi mdeenan,

will jump in while waiting on your next post to highlight just a few thoughts here:

you are about to be slammed by the right by advocating a position that closely mirrors that of the far left and is a pretty good postulation of the communist doctrine. i, myself, not limited to such myopia will also point out, as you yourself alluded to, religious organizations and other ideologies also tie into this so it is not strictly a political motivation at work here.

for those who do focus narrowly on left vs. right and as a thought to your question about wages decreasing while wealth has increased, I offer this:

could wages be retarded in their advancement due to the systematic dumbing down of the populace? could it also be the right capitalizes on this phenomena while it continues to be perpetuated by the left? isn't it interesting to know that financially, you would be hard-pressed to identify those who were right or left? does anyone truly believe professional politicians have any real concern for your welfare?

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HT - Klipsch Synergy Premiere

Audio - Heresy, KG4

[edster00]

Damn, I just lost an reply I spent an hour on...maybe I'll try to re-create it tomorrow.

It is a no-win discussion though which is why I stayed out to begin with. This is like the "A" word issue...everyone is passionate and no one is going to switch sides!

This message has been edited by edster00 on 07-27-2002 at 10:00 PM

[forresthump2]

Hell its Not complicated at all.

MD-People should get paid more because they're human.

Common Sense- People should get paid more because they earn it.

See.

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Go Forth and Hump the World

[forresthump2]

MD, Good question. But simply they earn it in a free market with Regulations only to protect people from Each other and the natural elements. Not earn more money from Gov interference for income and wealth fairness.

But what specifical do you propose as your solution? Simply Raising tariffs? You haven't addressed what i brought up earlier. How do we export more if incomes don't rise in other countries? And countries that are going through tremendous growth in population unlike ours.

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Go Forth and Hump the World

[forresthump2]

And another thing. You can ***** about A-Rod and Such but that the American dream. People have hope. Though it may be as good a chance as winning the lottery, its always possible. And it drives people. Like competition. Like freedom. These are things that are not quantifiable but they exist just the same. And people with sense know they are there.

MD, you know they are they too but you ignore them because you're either angry about system or you have an agenda or both. Liberals dont want to make the system better. They want to control it. So they must downplay these things that make America great. Best place on earth, but when you call some place paradise you can kiss it goodbye. That's the Liberal agenda. They are the barbarians at the gate. No wonder its part of Al Qaeda's strategy to now use them against us.

OBL is one smart strategic puppy. The Seeds of our own destruction are all around us.

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Go Forth and Hump the World