cheap easy tricks for calming mids in k-horns etc

[Quiet_Hollow]

The trick with the Heritage line is to read the Dope from Hope , and the Bell Labs Symposium for Auditory Perspective from start to finish...then connect the dots.

It's the instruction manual for the entire line.

Heritage are an engineer's speaker. They require a degree of technical savvy on part of the owner. They will not reward the user who does not understand the vision, or strays too far from it.

The old man knew this, and that's why he and his associates wrote the publications which layout out the basics.

Follow the rules. There are a lot of them.

Respect the fact that many pieces are 10-45 years old, and will require some form of service (not necessarily modification) to stay true to their original sound.

You won't hear me complaining about the 400 or 401 horns anytime soon. I respect the work that went into their design and implementation. In the big picture, they are a solution I can most certainly live with.

[Deang]

Connect the dots? Man, that PK, he was such a kidder.

The K-401 has passable performance, it does okay, but Dave is right, the sound is "colored". This is well established and no one even disputes it. PK knew it too, but instead of redesigning the Klipschorn, he decided to put his efforts into the Jubilee, and he sure as hell had no plans of plopping a K-401 on top of it.

Bruce Edgar was once asked what it would take to improve the Klipschorn, he said, "a chainsaw." It was of course Dr. Edgar who was responsible for the tractrix horns that went into the Forte and Chorus. He brought some horns for PK to look at, and PK liked the way they curved and sounded. When Dr. Edgar was told that PK had decided to use the horns, he cried.

As usual, a nice job by Dr. Warren, but again, Dave is right -- it's a bandaid. Looks like a good one though.

The issue here, as pertaining to this thread, is achieving live listening levels with a minimal amount of distortion. The only time I've heard the K-401 get it done in this regard is with Al's ESNs, but the sound isn't very good at low to moderate levels, at least not to me. The answer with this horn is low order filters and reaonsable volume levels. You can go louder if you drop the midrange output, but then you no longer have flat response. Now, that doesn't mean I believe flat response is the answer to great sound, but I do think you need to stay in the ball park somewhat -- the sound still needs to be honest.

Klipsch made "Tractrix" into a trademark, and you will find tractrix horns in just about everything they make except Heritage. Now, this might sound a little crass, and I apologize in advance -- but when Ms. Valerie goes to be with The Lord, Klipsch will pull that horn before the eulogy is finished.

Edited February 14, 2014 by DeanG

[Quiet_Hollow]

Tractrix accomplishes one thing...improving the performance at the extreme flanks of the horn's dispersion envelope. On, or near-axis it doesn't sound any different.

IOW, it facilitates placement outside of the toe requirements established by the symposium. It aides in making horns sound better when used in ultra-wide coverage applications, which is fine, but outside the scope of the original research.

The Heritage are restricted to 40-45 degrees of toe. They are a 60 degree horn designed exclusively for correct stereo geometry within a 90 degree arc. So, about 5 degrees is all that we get to play with. Stepping outside of that boundary condition is where the anomalies start to creep in.

Tractrix is an excellent feature. However, it's not an absolute requirement for good sound when using the old playbook, and it's popularity certainly doesn't negate all the previous art.

[LarryC]

Tractrix accomplishes one thing...improving the performance at the extreme flanks of the horn's dispersion envelope. On, or near-axis it doesn't sound any different. IOW, it facilitates placement outside of the toe requirements established by the symposium. It aides in making horns sound better when used in ultra-wide coverage applications, which is fine, but outside the scope of the original research. The Heritage are restricted to 40-45 degrees of toe. They are a 60 degree horn designed exclusively for correct stereo geometry within a 90 degree arc. So, about 5 degrees is all that we get to play with.

I'd love to see a Tractrix drop-in replacement for the K-400/401. Is it possible for the K-77 or is it OK as is?

Edited February 14, 2014 by LarryC

[Marvel]

Dave has both.

http://mysite.verizon.net/res12il11/id68.html

http://mysite.verizon.net/res12il11/id146.html

No one ever posted a pic of the K401... here it is, along with the K400. The one with the ribs is the 401.

The K400 is shown with the smaller K500.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Marvel

[001]

well, mine is definantly the 401 horn. thanks for the pic. is the 401 "better" than the 400? would love to upgrade the horn itself but $465 is just too rich for my blood right now.

i expected the holy grail of audio when i bought the k-horns, wish i knew they had this many well known "faults." but i didnt do much research before i bought them. i did post a "opinions of cf-4 vs k-horns" thread before i bought them but it was dead in the water for some unknown reason.....

thanks again for all the input on this thread, i learned more than i had hoped for.

[djk]

A pair of K401 just went for $300 on eBay, so the difference would be more like $165 or so.

"Tractrix accomplishes one thing...improving the performance at the extreme flanks of the horn's dispersion envelope"

The initial expansion right off the throat is faster, reducing distortion.

The K402 initial expansion is conical, further reducing distortion, but requiring some EQ to be useable.

[gnatnoop]

i don't know what electronics you are using to feed the khorns but you might consider a differrent DAC.

that changed most of the poor performance of my system...

good luck...

[garyrc]

is the 401 "better" than the 400?

People at Klipsch Customer Service have repeatedly told me (c. 2005) that they felt that the K401 has "slightly lower distortion" than the K400. They did not specify what kind of distorrtion. When I installed my K401s, I considered a side by side test, changing the horn on only one channel at first, but decided not to bother, because I would have had to then switch them to fulfill the requirements of good experimental procedure, and that would have taken too much work, and Order Effect still would not have been accounted for.

In informal listening, I can't say I've heard a consistant or dramatic between the two horns.

[001]

i don't know what electronics you are using to feed the khorns but you might consider a differrent DAC.

that changed most of the poor performance of my system...

good luck...

its a long thread but i think i mention my electronics a few times, & theres another active thread listing all my gear. its all mid-fi s/s. no seperate DAC at this time, just whats in the adcom gcd600 cd player, says its all "class A analog circutry." & i also tried my onkyo gear thats supposed to be all burr/brown DAC in the receiver. oldschool adcom preamp & cd player sounds much better in my system & room limitations. only going on week 3 of owning the k-horns & minimal listening. i'm quite content at normal volumes & even get that WOW factor, its just up louder, approaching concert levels that i hear the "issues"

A pair of K401 just went for $300 on eBay, so the difference would be more like $165 or so.

thats a good price for stock 401's. after selling them (if thats a normal price & not a fluke) $165 is much more reasonable to upgrade the horns. might consider that in teh near future. thanks.

[djk]

$250 K401 pair.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Klipsch-K-400-FIBERGLASS-HORNS-FOR-Klipschorn-MINT-CONDITION-/201030905970?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item2ece603072#ht_671wt_750

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-of-Klipsch-k400-horns-with-k55-drivers-/281205574102?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item41792889d6#ht_101wt_988

This older K400 pair included K55V, which go for $150 on average, so he basically got $250 for the horns.

[John Warren]

Dave is right -- it's a bandaid. Looks like a good one though.

Not a Band-Aid A Band-Aid is when you change something of little consequence and assume a different result.

The challenge is to operate the mid within a bandwidth that makes sense for it and 3 octaves is ok. That requires a band-pass type of network. Ideally, it also means a tweeter capable of a 3kHz crossover is needed...K77 is out (not to say you cannot use it, but a better tweeter is preferable).

There are many 1" compression drivers available that preform well. I've tried ones from different manufacturers (Faital, Radian, B&C, BMS) on a few different horns. The plot below is a Radian 450PB on the Faital LTH102 cast Aluminum horn. A pair of these tweeter assemblies will be ~$450.

Edited February 15, 2014 by John Warren

[Deang]

Okay, it's not a band-aid, my apologies. Still, I don't think that's a good area for a transition point, which is why I think PK stayed away from it. He pushed everything out of the area where the human ear is the most sensitive. So, I guess I have a question: PK could have crossed over much lower (you yourself pointed out that a K-77 could be used, and many models were using it in just this way - 3.5kHz with a 12dB/octave tweeter filter).

Why did he push for the near four octave range, with measurements in hand telling him that other solutions might be preferable?

I like that Radian, it's what I use, and it certainly sounds very good. However, it approaches the price of a new pair of nice horns from Dave, and with an additional small investment for some B&C DE120 tweeters - everything drops in nice and tight without ruining the look of the loudspeaker.

Not to say I don't appreciate your solution, that probably sounds really good.

Edited February 16, 2014 by DeanG

[John Warren]

Still, I don't think that's a good area for a transition point, which is why I think PK stayed out of it. He pushed everything out of the area where the human ear is the least sensitive.

What push out? Did he not make a design decision to allow the midrange horn to resonant and ring over this range of so-called "enhanced" auditory sensitivity? What about 2-way control room monitors that have crossovers between 2.5-3.5 kHz i.e. smack dab in the middle of this region of perceptive purity?

So, I guess I have a question: PK could have crossed over much lower (you yourself pointed out that a K-77 could be used, and many models were using it in just this way - 3.5kHz with a 12dB/octave tweeter filter).

The lowest hi-pass corner frequency I'd recommend for K77M is -6dB@4.0kHz using a 24dB/oct min. attenuation (see below).

Why did he push for the near four octave range, with measurements in hand telling him that other solutions might be preferable?

The folded bass unit had a mass roll-off ~250Hz so PWK needed a midrange unit capable of a hi-pass, 1/X-power corner frequency somewhere between 300-400Hz. Of course there were other solutions but the one chosen was to operate a low cost compression driver over a bandwidth were it would be challenged. The other solutions were either not desirable (4-way Klispchorn), physically not possible given the constraints (extending the folded unit mass roll-off to 500Hz) or required invention (a Jubilee).

I like that Radian, it's what I use, and it certainly sounds very good.

I actually think it's only ok, I plotted it because the measurements were at my disposal on the computer I'm using. Of the 20 or so 1" compression units I've become familiar with, it's not my favorite.

However, it approaches the price of a new pair of nice horns from Dave, and with an additional small investment for some B&C DE120 tweeters - everything drops in nice and tight without ruining the look of the loudspeaker.

I can't comment on the sound of Dave's horn but I like Dave's approach so maybe that counts for something. And I do like a few of the B&C drivers.

Not to say I don't appreciate your solution, that probably sounds really good.

Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't.

Edited February 15, 2014 by John Warren

[Guest David H]

Not a Band-Aid A Band-Aid is when you change something of little consequence and assume a different result.

I didn't call it a Band Aid - That's "We are the world."

I called it a "crutch" which was not an insult, but maybe I should referred to it as a good "compromise".

I refered to the mod as a crutch because although it is a reasonable attempt to resolve and issue, the product is not being used as intended.

I did not mean to ruffle feathers John.

Dave

[John Warren]

No feathers ruffled, no insults taken, nothing of the sorts(?).

[Deang]

I meant to say "most sensitive" (but you knew what I meant).

Small mix down monitors transition in that area because they have to, not because that's what the ear prefers. There is currently a movement underway in the recording industry to move back to large, high efficiency loudspeakers to make the recordings sound better. Some are blaming the subpar performance of the current ilk for contributing to the plethora of lackluster recordings.

http://lenardaudio.com/education/06_x-over.html

You say you are "familiar" with the Radian, yet you've never heard it. Without hearing it, you then designate it as your "least favorite", but then present it as part of a supposedly superior solution that costs $450 that won't fit inside the loudspeaker. I don't understand.

Maybe Paul Klipsch tried a few things too, and chose the solution he did because it actually sounded the best.

If it would have resulted in a better sounding loudspeaker, he could have given up 25% of the power handling (it's not like it needed it) -- and dropped the crossover point.

Edited February 16, 2014 by DeanG

[John Warren]

I built a net for a pair of Radians, how do you think I measured them? I had a pair here, provided by the client. I've given them a good listen. Ok, they're not bad but I think I've heard better. What more can I say?

Regarding PWK and his design decisions, I can't comment, I wasn't there. He was however, just another guy with a pair of ears.

[Deang]

I misunderstood, when I said it might sound good, you said "maybe it does, maybe it doesn't." I took that to mean you hadn't heard it and figured you just pulled the numbers from the thielsmall site/database. Sorry about that.

[John Warren]

Understood.

Picking nits, T/S parameters are associated with low frequency drivers, the parameters are used to design enclosures and predict responses from them (Qes, Qts, Vas, Qms and so on...)

Horn tweeters and compression driver specifications are electro-mechanical parameters. Low frequecny drivers also have EM specifications, they're inputs for T/S determination.

Also, the second response plot I posted above is a K77M not the Radian, please keep up.

Edited February 16, 2014 by John Warren