cheap easy tricks for calming mids in k-horns etc

[001]

hi, ive read a few older posts about cheap & easy ways to try & help the mid horns on k-horns & others with the big mid squakers. can i get some input on the best way to do that? i dont want to buy $500 custom wood horns or any other modified horns. just looking for some cheap ideas/tricks to improve the mid section a bit on my k-horns.

i have read about using plumbers putty but not sure how/where to put it. also heard about putting something on the inside of the horn like a difuser of some sort, think i read one guy say he uses a ping pong ball or something. also had a drummer friend with lascallas that said he used a small gel pad thats used to muffle drum skins, he used a 1"x1" square inside the middle of the horn & said it helped a lot.

i listen to classic & new rock music mostly & frequently play it at higher volumes, when at that level there is some "harshness" that is mentioned many times, just looking to see if i can imrove on that without getting into major mods.

thanks

Edited February 10, 2014 by klipschfancf4

[Guest " "]

I've used memory foam cut out into a square section that fits inside the horn. others have hung handkerchiefs, stuff the horn with cotton balls, or socks.

[LarryC]

There are any number of things that can cause mid horns to sound excessive or not right, and some of them aren't the horns. Slight taming can be done by replacing the metal K-400's with plastic K-401's, at a very reasonable price for the pair. Pretty slight, though. Beyond that, you/we need to figure out just what the problem is. For example:

• Xover caps out of spec and needing replacement
• Problems with sound sources -- phono cartridge not well well aligned, harsh-sounding CD player
• Problems with electronic equipment choices -- harsh, grainy pre or amplifier
• Speaker wire that's odd, much too cheap, or too small a gauge

What can sound like MR problems can actually be the lower part of the tweeter's output. Oddly enough, problems with the treblemost part of the bass horn output can exaggerate output near the X-over point. I suggest you put your ear near the mouth of the tweeter, mid-range, and even the bass horn mouth to see if you can localize it.

If you can, i would suggest focusing in on just what is not pleasant about them. Like the character of the sound, or whether it's peaky, or if it's just one of your sound sources.

Edited February 10, 2014 by LarryC

[Mallette]

Yep, Larry...I'm thinking something must be going on. Last thing I'd want to do is "tame" the mid horn on my KCBRs.

It can produce bad sound...from bad recordings or anything not right in the playback chain.

Dave

[Deang]

You can reduce the harshness by going to a second order or steeper filter section for the squawker. It reduces the energy being unloaded into the throat of horn, and fixes the problem. If you listen loud, there is no other "fix". If you change the horn and stay with a stock crossover, it will still overload and sound like garbage at live (loud) listening levels. Don't let anyone convince you that changing capacitors or components will fix this problem, it won't.

[001]

i realize this is a tough subject & many factors can be the cause. also the terms people use to explain sounds are very vauge & can mean different things to different people. so i will try my best to localize it, but in the meantime here is the jist of my concern.

i am a new k-horn owner, they are pristine condition one owner speakers of 1995 vintage with the ak-3 x-overs. well cared for & very little use from what i was told. according to bob c the xover is a pretty decent design & the caps should not be "bad" at this age, they sound fine at "normal" volumes, but i do like to listen probably louder than most, close to a-list band concert levels, probably 110-115+ db, if not close to their max db output. quick example is back in the late 80's motley crue, for lack of a better band, came to town & claimed their show was setting records at 126+db for live concerts, we have a pretty large venue & used to get all the top name rock bands touring, so i am used to loud music. i push these k-horns close to that volume with a pretty decent 200wpc rotel amp, also tried a adcom gfa555ii amp but liked the rotels sound better. using a gtp500 preamp that is a pretty decent "mid-fi" pre with good reviews.

so what i'm hearing, up loud, is a slightly harsh mid, or what i consider mid, the highs like cymbal crashes & hi-hats etc sound pretty crips & clean, but certain vocals or electric guitars etc are what cause the issue. i understand recordings play a big part as well, but i dont recall having this "harshness" with any of my previous speakers on the same recordings & equiptment. i have klipsch fortes (sound awsome at any volume), kg5.5, & just sold my epic cf-4's which i feel are very underated, they sounded almost as good as the k-horns in every way except sheer volume & dynamics. i never heard what im describing on those speakers.

so with that said, i asked for ways to "tame" the mids a bit, i have read numerous threads on here as well as other places that review the k-horns, both private & professional & i am hearing comments that say the same thing, the mids can be a little harsh or overwhelming even on the best of s/s gear. not to mention all the upgrades & mods people do to these speakers, must be an issue for others too or they wouldnt be putting big aftermarket horns on them if the mids were as good as the rest of the speaker.

dont get me wrong, i am very impressed overall with them in the little time i have tested them, plus my room is far from ideal, nice solid corners but a little too small & they may be a little too close together. 25x13x8 & on the short wall. just a much different sound than other klipsch i have owned or heard. so before i go jumping into hundreds of dollars of upgrades, i just thought i'd ask for some ideas on ways to improve the mid section. i have seen people fill the outer top & sides of the mid horns with different types of fillers in an effort to improve what must be the same things i'm describing. i doubt i will try any stuffing of socks etc in the mids, but if damping the housing of the horn helps i'd like to try some things on that level.

Edited February 10, 2014 by klipschfancf4

[001]

You can reduce the harshness by going to a second order or steeper filter section for the squawker. It reduces the energy being unloaded into the throat of horn, and fixes the problem. If you listen loud, there is no other "fix". If you change the horn and stay with a stock crossover, it will still overload and sound like garbage at live (loud) listening levels. Don't let anyone convince you that changing capacitors or components will fix this problem, it won't.

very good info, thanks. forgive my lack of x-over knowledge but can you explain how to add this second order filter section for the squaker? i am good at soldering & basic electronics tinkering so i feel i could add something basic if thats whats needed.

[Chris A]

I've read a few older posts about cheap & easy ways to try & help the mid horns on K-horns & others with the big mid squawkers. Can i get some input on the best way to do that?...Just looking for some cheap ideas/tricks to improve the mid section a bit on my K-horns...I listen to classic & new rock music mostly & frequently play it at higher volumes, when at that level there is some "harshness" that is mentioned many times, just looking to see if i can improve on that without getting into major mods.

I believe that a picture of both speakers and the room that they're in will help to answer your question. Can you post them here?

Chris

[Quiet_Hollow]

If you listen loud, there is no other "fix". If you change the horn and stay with a stock crossover, it will still overload and sound like garbage at live (loud) listening levels. Don't let anyone convince you that changing capacitors or components will fix this problem, it won't.

Yep. The horn is a piece of crap. In fact, all horns are pieces of crap.

Don't let anyone here tell you otherwise.

Klipsch is smok'n crack for their continued use of them.

OP - You wanna fix the mids? You've gotta fix the bass.

[Deang]

I believe I just stated that changing the horn would NOT fix his problem.

I also stated that changing the horn and staying with a low order filter would leave him with the same problem (harshness at live listening levels).

The horn is a poor performer for loud listening, the problem can be mitigated somewhat with a network that does a better job for the kind of listening he does. After that, going to a tractrix horn with a larger throat will put him where he really wants to be.

[001]

If you listen loud, there is no other "fix". If you change the horn and stay with a stock crossover, it will still overload and sound like garbage at live (loud) listening levels. Don't let anyone convince you that changing capacitors or components will fix this problem, it won't.

Yep. The horn is a piece of crap. In fact, all horns are pieces of crap.

Don't let anyone here tell you otherwise.

Klipsch is smok'n crack for their continued use of them.

OP - You wanna fix the mids? You've gotta fix the bass.

ok, so how do i fix the bass to fix the mids????

[001]

I believe I just stated that changing the horn would NOT fix his problem.

I also stated that changing the horn and staying with a low order filter would leave him with the same problem (harshness at live listening levels).

The horn is a poor performer for loud listening, the problem can be mitigated somewhat with a network that does a better job for the kind of listening he does. After that, going to a tractrix horn with a larger throat will put him where he really wants to be.

no plans to change the horns just yet. would like more info on adding the 2nd order filter section if possible dean. thanks.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

... i do like to listen probably louder than most, close to a-list band concert levels, probably 110-115+ db, if not close to their max db output.

I'm thinking that over time the problem is going to fix itself. Give it a year or so and you will not be hearing any harshness (or much else for that matter).

Be careful with these speakers, they are like a high horsepower car and easy to hurt yourself. Tinnitus sucks.

[Deang]

The AK-3 has a coil in parallel with the driver, so technically it's already 2nd order. However, for reasons many of us have not been able to figure out, it does very little in providing anything in way of relief for the pinched harsh sound you're experiencing at those volume levels.

There is no network modification for the AK-3, most change out the crossovers. Yes, I run a business building and selling crossovers, but I don't lie and try to sell things to people they don't need. You listen really loud!

I encourage you to try all of the suggestions offered up by everyone else. God willing, I will still be around after you've tried them all.

[jason str]

I removed my mid assy, bag & taped over the driver so not to muck it up and sprayed a can of quiet coat over the outside of each horn, it did make a difference.

Quietcoat

[001]

... i do like to listen probably louder than most, close to a-list band concert levels, probably 110-115+ db, if not close to their max db output.

I'm thinking that over time the problem is going to fix itself. Give it a year or so and you will not be hearing any harshness (or much else for that matter).

Be careful with these speakers, they are like a high horsepower car and easy to hurt yourself. Tinnitus sucks.

i appreciate that & understand loud volumes can be harmfull, however i have been going to concerts since i was a teenager, i know when its too loud. i also play drums & usually wear some type of hearing protection. i may have overstated the actual DB levels i listen at, it was just a guess, i dont have a meter or anything to verify that. i probably have a mild case of tinnitus to be honest, in absolute quiet rooms i have always heard a slight ringing, never gets any worse though. & i dont listen that loud for extended periods, maybe a few minutes for a song or 2, then back to "normal" levels. i appreciate music for what it is just as much as i like it loud. you can hurt yourself doing most anything, its being stupid about it that usually brings the risk.

Edited February 11, 2014 by klipschfancf4

[001]

dean & jason: thanks for the info, i may look into the quietcoat or some other type of dampening for the outside horn body.

[001]

I've read a few older posts about cheap & easy ways to try & help the mid horns on K-horns & others with the big mid squawkers. Can i get some input on the best way to do that?...Just looking for some cheap ideas/tricks to improve the mid section a bit on my K-horns...I listen to classic & new rock music mostly & frequently play it at higher volumes, when at that level there is some "harshness" that is mentioned many times, just looking to see if i can improve on that without getting into major mods.

I believe that a picture of both speakers and the room that they're in will help to answer your question. Can you post them here?

Chris

heres how they sit for now. spaced about 9' apart from center of speakers. yes the def techs are too close to them, they were there first as part of the "theater" set up, i lay them down when i listen to the k-horns. a new tv is in the works & im not sure where everything will go for now. always wanted k-horns & a local deal came up i couldnt pass up so they are where they are for now. a new house may be in the near future too so things will have to be stuffed for now.

Edited February 11, 2014 by klipschfancf4

[Max2]

I've read a few older posts about cheap & easy ways to try & help the mid horns on K-horns & others with the big mid squawkers. Can i get some input on the best way to do that?...Just looking for some cheap ideas/tricks to improve the mid section a bit on my K-horns...I listen to classic & new rock music mostly & frequently play it at higher volumes, when at that level there is some "harshness" that is mentioned many times, just looking to see if i can improve on that without getting into major mods.

I believe that a picture of both speakers and the room that they're in will help to answer your question. Can you post them here?

Chris

heres how they sit for now. spaced about 9' apart from center of speakers. yes the def techs are too close to them, they were there first as part of the "theater" set up, i lay them down when i listen to the k-horns. a new tv is in the works & im not sure where everything will go for now. always wanted k-horns & a local deal came up i couldnt pass up so they are where they are for now. a new house may be in the near future too so things will have to be stuffed for now.

If they are just 9' apart getting more space in-between them would do wonders with imaging and separation. I don't know the actual "optimal" spacing for K's, but mine still look close to each other with my 20 foot wall. My 12 foot listening distance is a little too close as well. It seems there is always some give and take with everyones setup.

Just saw the pic. They are a little close, but it doesn't look that bad. Maybe someone else will chime in that has more experience and info. Great looking Speaks. Congrats!

Edited February 11, 2014 by Max2

[LarryC]

i may look into the quietcoat or some other type of dampening for the outside horn body.

heres how they sit for now. spaced about 9' apart from center of speakers.

Are your MR horns metal or plastic? If plastic, do you have some reason to think damping them will help? Let me say I'm doubtful. In any case, a pair of the plastic K-401's used to cost a mere $50. I don't detect ringing or harshness in mine.

Easy for me to say -- I have the expensive AK-4 Xovers, which took care of the previous unevenness and poor blending I had. I don't think I have a problem now.

I still think you're muddling through a bunch of difficult suggestions. I wouldn't know which path to take until I was sure what the problem is. I'm certainly not convinced it will take something like a special MR horn though many do think so.

Where do you live?

Edited February 11, 2014 by LarryC