Mallette Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 Maybe not so weird to the tech cognoscenti. I dug my Citation 17 preamp and Citation 12 amp out both to demo the Frazier Elevens and to check them out to sell. I'd was stunned at how good they sounded. I played the Virgil Fox "Fox Touch" at levels that left my ears ringing. Haven't played anything that loud in a LONG time. Shook the windows, walls, and floor. Serious...and wicked clean! Left it on overnight and came back. Nothing. Cranked the volume all the way and could just hear the music. It was clean but scarcely audible. Went straight into the amp, and it was fine. Re-plugged the pre and checked all the switches, etc, no change. So, I tried tape out, and all was perfect. So, whatever is going on is happening in the volume, equalizer, and such stages. However, I've never had that sort of failure before and am really puzzled. Any thoughts? It was really disappointing as I'd forgotten how nice this combo sounded. Less of that sterile SS sound than I recall, which is something I don't care for, and the preamp was incredibly quiet. Now, of course, it's suddenly TOO quiet. Any thoughts? Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 See if you can find a link to the schematics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Here is the twelve. Don't have the seventeen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 hifiengine.com is supposed to have them but I don't have an account... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 4, 2014 Author Share Posted March 4, 2014 Thanks for the 12. Never know when it might be needed. The amp is working great. As good an SS sound as I've ever heard. Pinned myself to the back wall testing the Frazier Elevens with Virgil Fox. Mien Gott! My ears rang for an hour. Dangerous levels without doubt, but not a hint of distortion. Them puppies PERFORMED! Now, I hooked up my Soundcraftsman 4000 preamp which was also working great when I put it in the closet a few years ago. All still good...except the phono input which has a significant pink noise along with random cracking and such. Occasional brief silence...though a record playing can be heard through it and never drops out or changes. Really sux...both nice preamps. Of course, the Soundcraftsman has plenty of good working inputs but the Citation isn't useful at the moment. I'll take a look at hifiengine. Never heard of it. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 4, 2014 Author Share Posted March 4, 2014 hfe_harman_kardon_citation_17_service.pdf That was interesting. Don't recall ever being there, but when I tried to create an account it said I already had one... Anyway, here is the Citation 17 service manual. If anyone has thoughts on what I might meter test or whatever it would be appreciated. They didn't have my Soundcraftsmen. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Check: Main power fuse Tape monitor switches Output muting relay (check the coil for continuity, and see if the 24V voltage to drive it is there) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 5, 2014 Author Share Posted March 5, 2014 Power is definitely there, as I have full clean output from the tape monitor outs. TM switches were the first thing I checked. Would that output muting relay not be in the TM circuits as well? Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 The tape monitor outs are not an issue, the switches are. "Would that output muting relay not be in the TM circuits as well? " Two guesses, and the first one doesn't count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 5, 2014 Author Share Posted March 5, 2014 I will see if I can locate that relay this weekend and make the suggested check on it. I appreciate the input. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Dave, So far you don't know if you can hear that relay clicking in or not, correct? That sounds like the place to start. Other than that I would say: It was working one night and the next day nothing, sounds like the usual culprits, dirty switches, pots, connections. But you already know that. Otherwise its the Gremlins . Please keep us informed on what you find. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Dave, Were you playing a CD or Phono? If CD(Aux In) it looks like Tape Mon Outs are before any active circuitry. Could still be a power problem if so. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 " Check: Main power fuse Tape monitor switches Output muting relay (check the coil for continuity, and see if the 24V voltage to drive it is there) " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 6, 2014 Author Share Posted March 6, 2014 Dave, Were you playing a CD or Phono? If CD(Aux In) it looks like Tape Mon Outs are before any active circuitry. Could still be a power problem if so. Eric Yep. It's all inputs. They are passing a VERY low, but audible signal. The signal sounds clean...inasmuch as it is audible...but very, very low. djk, not sure just WHAT to check on TM switches. Certainly I functioned them immediately to no avail, but beyond that don't know what to check. I will also check the main power fuse, but find it odd that, if blown, it would not also take out the convenience outlets which all work fine. I am assuming that, if the TM out is entirely passive, it would pass a signal regardless of whether the unit was on or not...at least, that appears to be your assumption. I'll have a bit of time this evening. Mark Zenial, a new forum member in the Houston area, is coming over Saturday for a listening session in both rooms so I am checking things out. Looking forward to it, as I haven't had a hornhead over for a while. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 The evidence seems to be pointing to the muting relay. Any progress on checking it? Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 6, 2014 Author Share Posted March 6, 2014 (edited) No. Not even sure how, assuming I can find it. Of course, if it is a mechanical relay it should be obvious. I will have some time this evening. Last night was Ash Wednesday services. Dave PS - I noted a pretty significant "thump" from the amp when I powered up the preamp the other day as I had it plugged into the pre convenience outlet. I see 6 have downloaded. Could someone who knows verify that we are talking about relay K1 shown on pages 16/17? 1. Do I test for an open circuit (yeah, DUH...but I like to verify) 2. If it proves to be the problem, can I jump it to get it going again until I can find a replacement, assuming such can be found? I can always power up the amp separately. Dave Edited March 6, 2014 by Mallette Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 No. Not even sure how, assuming I can find it. Of course, if it is a mechanical relay it should be obvious. I will have some time this evening. Last night was Ash Wednesday services. Dave PS - I noted a pretty significant "thump" from the amp when I powered up the preamp the other day as I had it plugged into the pre convenience outlet. I see 6 have downloaded. Could someone who knows verify that we are talking about relay K1 shown on pages 16/17? 1. Do I test for an open circuit (yeah, DUH...but I like to verify) 2. If it proves to be the problem, can I jump it to get it going again until I can find a replacement, assuming such can be found? I can always power up the amp separately. Dave K1 is the output muting relay from what I can tell. I wouldn't jump it, there's a reason it's there. Check for continuity, and whether it has 24 volts getting to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 6, 2014 Author Share Posted March 6, 2014 Roger that... Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 K1 is a reed relay, you may not be able to hear it operate at all. I had a slew of 12VDC relays, for some custom controllers I assembled for my last employer. ... a long time ago. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Dave, Yes it is K1 on pages 16/17. It is there to keep the outputs tied to ground on power up until the power supply and amp circuits have stabilized. After a brief time delay it switches and removes the ground connection from the output connectors. With power off check the coil for continuity. If open you need a new relay. If ok turn on and after a brief delay you should hear it click in. Do all this with the power amp disconnected BTW. If you don't hear K1 click in you should have continuity from the outputs to ground. This in fact would be a good test of the relay. With no power are the outputs tied to ground? Then a few seconds after power up does the connection to ground open up? What would you jump? You would have to remove it so it can't make the ground connection. But from what you are describing it sounds like a bad or dirty connection at any connector or switch or pot. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.