New topic on my turntable upgrading

[USNRET]

I am limited to MM or HOMC because my Tercell II does not support and my NBS pre-amp is line stage only. Oh, and I love both but it would be nice now that I have (or will be receiving soon) a table that perhaps I might want to experiment cart swaps on. I might even buy another table from a member and I could have that in line. Hey no one has ever accused me of being forwarding thinking.

Both Mark and Craig tell me updating either would not make sense space and money wise.

Options:

Sell Tercel and get another phono stage? What?

Sell the NBS and get Craig to build another?

Or, what's up with these SUTs and head amps I hear about. Does another link in the chain reduce quality?

Thoughts?

Edited May 10, 2014 by USNRET

[CECAA850]

Thoughts?

I wish I had your problems.

[USNRET]

I wish I had your problems.

Trust me, no you don't!

[CECAA850]

I wish I had your problems.

Trust me, no you don't!

Ok, just send me the Tercel and NBS and I'll wallow for you.

[CECAA850]

Sorry for the thread crap. I hope you figure it out.

[LarryC]

What do Mark and Craig advise? Whatever you do, I believe you'll want

1. A MM phono stage with around 33 dB gain (this is on top of your line stage and its gain, which itself is probably about 20 dB); and
2. A separate MC phono stage that has at least 61 dB gain or perhaps more for a very low-output LOMC like one of the 0.25 mv or less Ortofons

My Joule Electra preamp has an obscure button on a circuit board inside the chassis that selects 33 db or 61 db (MM and MC respectively; 61 db is plenty of gain for my 0.5-0,6 mv Transfiguration. But I can't switch carts without accessing that button. The least expensive BAT pre's have the same situation, a slider switch on the little SS phono stage inside the chassis.

I think Mark inserted transformers as the "Cream" option inside his Blueberry pres. Guess he couldn't do that in the Tercel. I don't know if the BB could switch between MM and MC

Obviously I prefer the convenience of one-chassis preamps with MM and/or MC; does Craig's NBS have an LOMC phono option? MM and MC? It would be interesting to see what he recommends.

Edited May 10, 2014 by LarryC

[USNRET]

Craig's word was to buy another NBS due to work / expense of modifying this line stage only. Front plate, rear plate, etc. Mark tells me he can't add the cream option.

Forgot to add that the NBS does offer these option on order.

Edited May 10, 2014 by USNRET

[joessportster]

Step up transformers can introduce noise if you dont get a pair that are made really well, as I recall grounding was key, that said the stevens and billington were super nice and very quiet.

heres a pair

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/phono-pair-of-custom-stevens-billington-copper-suts-with-adjustable-gain-20db-26db-2014-05-10-preamplifiers-90210-beverly-hills-ca

I will say I was a huge fan of lOMC and I felt they would pull more detail out when aligned properly

I did use some very nice MM cartridges though, If you are happy with the NBS I personally would keep it go with a cartridge like the black and down the road upgrade again with cart and SUT You have basically bought a table / arm that is about as good as it gets (in realistic $) any further table arm upgrades will be a gain in nuance at best. This will allow you to take your time and audition cartridges at your discretion and know without a doubt the cart is the difference in your SQ

[joshnich]

I must be missing something. Cant you just get a step up transformer like these?

http://www.kandkaudio.com/phonostage.html

[USNRET]

I must be missing something. Cant you just get a step up transformer like these?

http://www.kandkaudio.com/phonostage.html

Yes but my question is do these things have less quality than a dedicated phono stage or preamp.

[A1UC]

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/cartridges-bob-s-devices-cinemag-1131-blue-sut-with-bob-s-silver-cable-1-20-and-1-40-switchable-2014-05-04-analog-10010-new-york-ny

Edited May 11, 2014 by A1UC

[USNRET]

I don't know. I want to marry up the cart and arm and the arm is more than phono stage or preamp. If these SUTs are not a detractor it seems a viable option.

Since the 70's I have felt that LOMC was better just never had the setup to take advantage.

Edited May 11, 2014 by USNRET

[A1UC]

MM came a long way and I myself see no reason the move to MC

[Fjd]

Or, what's up with these SUTs and head amps I hear about. Does another link in the chain reduce quality?

Thoughts?

I look at it as another aspect of 'components' rather than integrated in one unit, for which a separate component gives you a better opportunity to better match the step-up ratio to the cartridge you select.

Step up transformers can introduce noise if you dont get a pair that are made really well, as I recall grounding was key, that said the stevens and billington were super nice and very quiet.

Agreed, the implementation is probably key.

I don't know. I want to marry up the cart and arm and the arm is more than phono stage or preamp. If these SUTs are not a detractor it seems a viable option.

Since the 70's I have felt that LOMC was better just never had the setup to take advantage.

I don't know all of the nuances, but it seems that it is just a matter on one being internally wired and the other uses interconnects. I suspect that not much different than separate amps and pre amps where quality interconnects, cable and appropriate grounding probably go a long way.

I believe that Mark used Jensen SUTs in the cream option and Craig has a couple of options using the Lundahl MC SUT in the NBS.

I don't know much about matching a SUT to a cartridge since I'm not to that point with any of my systems.

The wiring of a SUT is not really complex. Here are a couple of DIY SUTs using old transformers from United Transformer Company (UTC) that sound good.

Edited May 11, 2014 by Fjd

[USNRET]

As my faulty memory recalls from way back then.you have either a moving magnet opposed to a stationary coil or the opposite with a moving coil opposed to a stationary magnet to generate the current (voltage). Since the coil(s) were lighter than the magnet the stylus would be capable of tracking the grove more easily. Perhaps I dis-remember or technology has changed; I would expect the physics are constant.

[LarryC]

I don't know. I want to marry up the cart and arm and the arm is more than phono stage or preamp. If these SUTs are not a detractor it seems a viable option.

Well, I just now finally looked at Craig's website, and like his imaginative handling of these design issues -- if one gets the LOMC option, one gets a nice, clean spot on the front panel dial for "phono" AND BOTH AN MM and MC input jack on the back. There is a small switch to choose which you want to use! (Don't switches vary in quality?) The LOMC input uses internal transformers. See http://www.nosvalves.com/index4.htm.

I don't think your question comes down to the quality of his transformers, does it? Without being able to hear and play with it, the NBS with perhaps the premium LOMC option does seem to offer what you want -- a well-engineered tube phono stage and integrated transformers.

Also, the transformers can be switched between two or three levels of gain. Gain matching can be frustrating with high-efficiency Klipsch and amplifier gain levels all over the place, particularly with LOMC cart outputs varying as much as they do. One reason for that? the dB difference is the square of the voltage diff, so doubling the voltage is 6 dB more, not just 3. That's a big difference.

This is a very fine preamp IMO. At least as important in the long run, Craig makes a physically top quality product, durable in both beauty and functionality.

Edited May 11, 2014 by LarryC

[USNRET]

This is a very fine preamp IMO. At least as important in the long run, Craig makes a physically top quality product, durable in both beauty and functionality.

Which is why I own one as well as his VRDs and had the stereo version before.

Edited May 11, 2014 by USNRET

[NOSValves]

I must be missing something. Cant you just get a step up transformer like these?

http://www.kandkaudio.com/phonostage.html

If you want to go the LOMC route this is exactly what I install in the NBS(without the box). Get a nice quality set of 1' IC's to go between the SUT and tercel and your all set. No SQ loss worth fretting about.

[USNRET]

I must be missing something. Cant you just get a step up transformer like these?

http://www.kandkaudio.com/phonostage.html

If you want to go the LOMC route this is exactly what I install in the NBS(without the box). Get a nice quality set of 1' IC's to go between the SUT and tercel and your all set. No SQ loss worth fretting about.

Thanks, that's what I wanted to hear.

Edit; If I could sell the Tercel and the NBS to cover the cost of a new NBS with MM/LOMC that's what I would do just to keep a minimum of stuff.

Edited May 11, 2014 by USNRET

[NOSValves]

Well even if you go that route eventually the SUT can still be used with any preamp with built phono that you get down the road. Those boxes are small and if you keep the cable short its of no concern.