Advice on surrounds and the importance of wattage ratings please.

[Youthman]

the 35 watts is going to help overall isn't it?

Not really.  It takes 2x the power to gain 3db in volume. You will never hear the difference between a 100w receiver and a 130w receiver (if all else was equal).

 

If not why wouldn't they just make receivers push 50 watts a channel across the board? There is some positive for the power.

It's all part of marketing.  They can add 20 watts / channel and charge more for it.  I have powered RF-83 with an RC-7 with a Harman Kardon AVR55 (55wpc) and it did an amazing job except for really loud volumes, the vocals began to break up a bit and sound somewhat distorted.  When I moved up to an Onkyo 100wpc, there was no strain at the top end.  Then again, I doubled the power so I would expect to hear a difference.  But going from 100 to say 120wpc isn't going to make any audible difference.

 

This is a great community to learn from each other.  I have been around the forums for awhile but I still learn new things and am grateful for the wealth of knowledge that is shared within this community.

[derrickdj1]

I have owned Icon surround speakers and used them with the RF 7's and RC 64 and never did the small surrounds have a problem.  If the speakers are xo at 80 it will be near impossible to blow them.  The bass sucks power and at and 80 xo, that will not be a problem.  The RS 62's are the only surrounds that could possibly be ran full range but, that is not recommended.  The GF also makes some good points but dipole work best as surrounds.  I like my I con VF 35's so much I kept after selling off the large VF 36 tower, center, 2 pair of the surrounds and the sub. 

 

That system was ran with a Pioneer Elite and 200-250 watt power amp and never whimpered.

Edited November 6, 2014 by derrickdj1

[karelj]

I'm not as easily seduced by mere wattage numbers as I appear to be. I also pay attention to the sensitivity of the speakers. Since I am now dealing with more high end stuff, I am also taking note of the frequency response.

I just wanted to make sure that I did not overlook anything that could potentially result in damage to recently purchased speakers.

 

Even though I think she should get the dedicated surrounds, I have a feeling that my gf is going to nab the bookshelf speakers. All I can do is try and convince  her to get the center channel now and wait to see if Best Buy puts the rest of the Icon line on clearance.

 

Just one other item that I hope can be clarified. The KF-28 is listed as having a crossover frequency of 1800 Hz. What exactly does that mean? Is it related in anyway to the crossover for the subwoofer to deal with lower frequencies?

 

I warned my gf that we were going down a rabbit hole..  Now the primitive part of my brain is thinking "need moar speakers, with moar woofers and tweeters made from unicorn horns. MOAR POWAHHH!!"

[The History Kid]

I believe those crossover frequencies are where the two drivers exchange duties.

 

I'd see what you can find on your local CL first, I know that there were a pair of RS-7's up that direction that were going for a VERY reasonable price recently.

[Paducah Home Theater]

The receiver I was talking about was pushing 90 watts, so for the 35 watts extra you have, it would still be "underpowered" as per Klipsch/Yamaha

All I can tell you is that my RF-7ii's being "underpowered" is the absolute last thing on anybody's mind when they listen to my setup, and it is very clean even at higher levels and it handles dynamics very well, and these speakers can handle a hell of a lot more than your Icons. Saying I need more power to run your Icon 28's properly is silliness, you'd have to go with a separate amp to get much better, and if you're going to do that, you need better speakers.

 

why wouldn't they just make receivers push 50 watts a channel across the board?

Because higher numbers sells units.

Extra power never hurts in my opinion, but that number isn't the end authority either. There's too many games that can be played on receivers, it's rarely real world power and every manufacturer has a different yard stick, figuratively speaking. Plus, you can't just look at the wattage when comparing two different brands either.

Edited November 6, 2014 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[karelj]

" If the speakers are xo at 80 it will be near impossible to blow them.  The bass sucks power and at and 80 xo, that will not be a problem."

 

I'll probably cross them over above 80 if the Audyssey setup sets them higher.

 

"The GF also makes some good points"

 

Shhhhh...don't let her hear you say that. 

[karelj]

I believe those crossover frequencies are where the two drivers exchange duties.

 

I'd see what you can find on your local CL first, I know that there were a pair of RS-7's up that direction that were going for a VERY reasonable price recently.

 

I'll keep looking on CL, but it is pretty bare right now.

[derrickdj1]

You don't really need any of the reference line unless you are going all reference from a safety standpoint.  I run my system XO at 80 and it sounds great.  The XO in the avr just decides if the speakers will be under bass management or not.  The XO in the speaker is as stated, the point different drivers start or stop taking certain frequencies. The XO in the speaker are meant for one thing only, to protect the driver.  There is nothing magical about using lower or higher XO points.

Edited November 6, 2014 by derrickdj1

[The History Kid]

You don't really need any of the reference line unless you are going all reference from a safety standpoint. 

 

I don't understand what you mean by that.  If the end game is an upgrade to Reference anyway, and reference fits the budget, why wouldn't you go with it?

 

 

 

I believe those crossover frequencies are where the two drivers exchange duties.

 

I'd see what you can find on your local CL first, I know that there were a pair of RS-7's up that direction that were going for a VERY reasonable price recently.

 

I'll keep looking on CL, but it is pretty bare right now.

 

 

Use SearchTempest...it'll give you better results over a wider area.

Edited November 6, 2014 by IbizaFlame

[derrickdj1]

Lol, you did not read my statement correctly.  I said he did not need any Reference line in response to his original question pertaining to the wattage and safety.  To own the Reference line or any of the other lines is a personal choice, lol.

[The History Kid]

Lol, you did not read my statement correctly.  I said he did not need any Reference line in response to his original question pertaining to the wattage and safety.  To own the Reference line or any of the other lines is a personal choice, lol.

 

Ah, that makes much more sense. 

[Jim]

All I can tell you is that my RF-7ii's being "underpowered" is the absolute last thing on anybody's mind when they listen to my setup, and it is very clean even at higher levels and it handles dynamics very well, and these speakers can handle a hell of a lot more than your Icons. Saying I need more power to run your Icon 28's properly is silliness, you'd have to go with a separate amp to get much better, and if you're going to do that, you need better speakers.

 

No where did I say your speakers were underpowered. What I stated is Klipsch and Yamaha said different, and then got attacked by the "cool kids on the playground". I in no way would even begin to question people on here who are by far more educated than I am within audio. Come into my sphere of knowledge and it's a different story.

[Paducah Home Theater]

No where did I say your speakers were underpowered.

I agree, all I'm saying is that my setup is way more lopsided than yours in terms of specified power so I wouldn't worry about it based on that number alone.

[garyrc]

What I was told however by both Klipsch and Yamaha is that those 28's are severely underpowered by a receiver rated at 100 watts per channel as I had a smaller Yamaha receiver powering them. They both said the speaker being underpowered as much as that could affect the speaker and/or the unit as the unit will be working extremely hard to push those, so I did upgrade the unit with more wattage.

 

• At 98 db sensitivity on the part of your KF28s, they are not underpowered with a 100 watts per channel receiver, especially since, if you use the correct crossover setting, your self-powered sub(s) will get most of the abuse.
• Start experimenting by setting the crossover to the sub(s) at about 80 Hz.  This is what THX, Audyssey, and most other experts advocate, no matter how good your main speakers are at reproducing bass.  The subs are usually much better at it, if they are moderately good ones [did you say your subs came from a home theater in a box?  If so, new better subs may be the way to go].  I finally settled on a 60 Hz xo in my system.  Setting the crossover at 60 or 80 will protect your main speakers. Now for something completely different.  Some receivers allow you to set the Low Pass Filter for Low Frequency Effects (LPF for LFE).  This is not a true crossover to your sub(s) -- rather, it is a low pass filter that allows the special sound effects put on soundtracks, and consequently, on Blu-rays, by the filmmakers to pass to your sub(s).  The correct setting for the LPF, if it can be adjusted, is usually thought to be 120 Hz, because that is what the filmmakers expect.  In fact, they're banking on it.  Both the LFE below 120, and the music, etc. below about 80 (if that is where you set your crossover) come out of "the same hole" in your AVR, the subwoofer output.
• Receiver power ratings are typically exaggerated if any more than 2 channels are being used.  I think I read somewhere that the typical receiver puts out about 70% of its rated power if there are more than 2 channels operating at once.  Also receiver power ratings are almost never RMS.  Still, 70% power is not much lower in terms of dB.

Edited November 7, 2014 by Garyrc

[karelj]

Start experimenting by setting the crossover to the sub(s) at about 80 Hz. This is what THX, Audyssey, and most other experts advocate, no matter how good your main speakers are at reproducing bass

 

I initially set the crossover at 80Hz and played the aforementioned material from Lord of The Rings (cats hated it) and Robocop.

We then ran the Audyssey setup and it set the crossover at 40Hz. This made sense to me since I read about this on a few other forums and the consensus was to set the crossover right before full range speakers hit the low point of their range.

Gotta say, the effect was more dramatic. I understand the concern about not pushing a lot of work on the speakers so I will experiment with a crossover between 40Hz and 60Hz.

 

Some receivers allow you to set the Low Pass Filter for Low Frequency Effects (LPF for LFE). This is not a true crossover to your sub(s) -- rather, it is a low pass filter that allows the special sound effects put on soundtracks, and consequently, on Blu-rays, by the filmmakers to pass to your sub(s). The correct setting for the LPF, if it can be adjusted, is usually thought to be 120 Hz.

 

Way ahead of you. I never mess with that setting. It was set at 120 and that is where it always stays.

[derrickdj1]

Setting the XO higher will conserve power for the mid's and Hi's.  Bass waves in a multichannel system can cancel each other out.  It sounds like you need a new sub.  Here is a good read on bass management and setting up the speakers: http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=95817

Edited November 7, 2014 by derrickdj1

[The History Kid]

Setting the XO higher will conserve power for the mid's and Hi's.  Bass waves in a multichannel system can cancel each other out.  It sounds like you need a new sub.

 

I agree with this.

 

80 Hz is the industry standard, and it's not that way just because it's a standard, but it's proven to lighten the load on the speakers and allow them to do what they do best.  The subwoofer cut runs up to 80 Hz and beyond for a reason.   I promise, if you put a decent sub in, and let it handle 80 Hz down, it'll blow away anything you think you hear now at 40 Hz.

[karelj]

I'm sorry..I wasn't too clear on my experience.

When I stated that the effect was more dramatic, it was not the LFE/Bass effects I was referring to - though the Bridge of Khazad Dum sequence with the Balrog is my go to for showing off my surround system/subwoofer - it was the range of sound coming out of the KF-28s. Fuller, more expressive.

[The History Kid]

That's part of running the fronts with an unrestricted range, and also something that can be remedied by a good sub or two.  It's similar to the settings of having the speakers set to large or small...

 

This is a pretty good article on that, including the LG/SM settings:

http://www.ecoustics.com/articles/set-speakers-small-receiver-setup/

[Jim]

At 98 db sensitivity on the part of your KF28s, they are not underpowered with a 100 watts per channel receiver, especially since, if you use the correct crossover setting, your self-powered sub(s) will get most of the abuse. Start experimenting by setting the crossover to the sub(s) at about 80 Hz.  This is what THX, Audyssey, and most other experts advocate, no matter how good your main speakers are at reproducing bass.  The subs are usually much better at it, if they are moderately good ones [did you say your subs came from a home theater in a box?  If so, new better subs may be the way to go].  I finally settled on a 60 Hz xo in my system.  Setting the crossover at 60 or 80 will protect your main speakers. Now for something completely different.  Some receivers allow you to set the Low Pass Filter for Low Frequency Effects (LPF for LFE).  This is not a true crossover to your sub(s) -- rather, it is a low pass filter that allows the special sound effects put on soundtracks, and consequently, on Blu-rays, by the filmmakers to pass to your sub(s).  The correct setting for the LPF, if it can be adjusted, is usually thought to be 120 Hz, because that is what the filmmakers expect.  In fact, they're banking on it.  Both the LFE below 120, and the music, etc. below about 80 (if that is where you set your crossover) come out of "the same hole" in your AVR, the subwoofer output. Receiver power ratings are typically exaggerated if any more than 2 channels are being used.  I think I read somewhere that the typical receiver puts out about 70% of its rated power if there are more than 2 channels operating at once.  Also receiver power ratings are almost never RMS.  Still, 70% power is not much lower in terms of dB.

 

THIS is why I joined the forum