wvu80 Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 (edited) yeah I get what your saying but if I were watching a clip at reference volumes that (can) these can keep up just fine? (minor editing by me for clarification) The problem is you are using the expression "keep up." I'm not sure that concept applies the way you are using it. I am questioning the expression because of my own experience switching to 5.1 just a couple of years ago. I was so used to sound in stereo (which I now understand is "2.0" ) that when I went to 5.1, the CONCEPT and the sound stage was so different I was completely lost. I no longer needed all the speakers to be the "same" or even sound the same. The center speaker is now so fine tuned for vocals. Surrounds are now needed to produce gun shots and crickets chirping, big full bass need not apply. Now we have Dolby Atmos speakers which don't produce LOUD, but adds FULL to a three dimensional sound stage by bouncing sound off the ceiling. I have just now arrived at beginning to understand surround sound. With Atmos, I am once again lost. Can the new Atmos speakers "keep up" with the strong Klipsch L/R/C and surround sound speakers Klipsch is famous for? I think the concept of "keeping up" might be an antiquated expression referring to the sound stage of a by-gone era. If an Atmos module "meets Atmos specs" that might be the only criteria one need ask about. It's a new (Atmos) world. Edited July 16, 2015 by wvu80 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nismo Posted July 16, 2015 Author Share Posted July 16, 2015 (edited) Think of your Fronts/Center/RS... as large flood lights pointing directly at you (at ear level / listener level). Then think of Atmos upward firing (or ceiling speakers)... as a Laser Pointer moving about on the ceiling above you. They don't compete with each other, they compliment each other. edit: should have mentioned the ceiling was "shiny" & the laser was not direct, it was reflecting back down to you (diffused). I've had 2 Atmos Front Heights, in place since January (decoded with my Denon 4100). And they fill in the upper hemisphere of sound... as my RF-7's never achieved (I've owned my RF-7's for 15 years). Here's a review I posted last spring, helping to describe the differences presented with an Atmos track: For example in John Wick (a great Atmos Blu-ray) .... when playing the standard Dolby TrueHD track; it has the barrage of bullets, helicopters & rainfall "coming at you" at ear level (very directional, either from the front or rear)... very much an "Equator" only sound hemisphere. It just hits you from "1" sound stage. With the ATMOS track.... the barrage of bullets, helicopters & rainfall hits you from the "whole, northern" sound hemisphere above you... not just the linear "ear level equator". In the real world, when a gun is fired in a room... the concussion of sound, expands hits the ceiling & fills the room. The sound doesn't come from a fixed position (i.e., front left corner). That dome of sound is really effective & noticeably different with the Atmos track. That example demonstrates the benefit an Atmos track provides & I'm only using 2 front modules. I can only imagine how great & immersive the sound will be when I add an additional pair of upward firing modules to the back as well. Good stuff! I can't wait for future updates. Edited July 16, 2015 by Nismo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agile1966 Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Let us know what you think of them when you have them hooked up with the new amp. I went the cheap route and picked up a pair of the Onkyos. I have yet to have the time to play and recalibrate them. Once I move, I will add an amp to the X4100 and do 5.1.4. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 yeah I get what your saying but if I were watching a clip at reference volumes that (can) these can keep up just fine? (minor editing by me for clarification)The problem is you are using the expression "keep up." I'm not sure that concept applies the way you are using it. I am questioning the expression because of my own experience switching to 5.1 just a couple of years ago. I was so used to sound in stereo (which I now understand is "2.0" ) that when I went to 5.1, the CONCEPT and the sound stage was so different I was completely lost. I no longer needed all the speakers to be the "same" or even sound the same. The center speaker is now so fine tuned for vocals. Surrounds are now needed to produce gun shots and crickets chirping, big full bass need not apply. Now we have Dolby Atmos speakers which don't produce LOUD, but adds FULL to a three dimensional sound stage by bouncing sound off the ceiling. I have just now arrived at beginning to understand surround sound. With Atmos, I am once again lost. Can the new Atmos speakers "keep up" with the strong Klipsch L/R/C and surround sound speakers Klipsch is famous for? I think the concept of "keeping up" might be an antiquated expression referring to the sound stage of a by-gone era. If an Atmos module "meets Atmos specs" that might be the only criteria one need ask about. It's a new (Atmos) world. im not sure how else to explain what I'm saying? I can assure you that if I put an rc-62ii between my cinema left and right speakers it would be drowned out at a certain point on the volume and would just be left behind IF I was to go any louder. That is what I am saying. I guess they would be fine for real world listening levels. Just wondering for demo purposes and getting a little crazy with the volume if they speaker could stay behaved or would it be at its max acoustic output? If this is still to hard to grasp what I'm saying don't worry about it. I'm sure I'll eventually end up with these or the towers as I like trying all new Klipsch products. So if not I will find out for myself one day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay L Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 yeah I get what your saying but if I were watching a clip at reference volumes that (can) these can keep up just fine? (minor editing by me for clarification)The problem is you are using the expression "keep up." I'm not sure that concept applies the way you are using it. I am questioning the expression because of my own experience switching to 5.1 just a couple of years ago. I was so used to sound in stereo (which I now understand is "2.0" ) that when I went to 5.1, the CONCEPT and the sound stage was so different I was completely lost. I no longer needed all the speakers to be the "same" or even sound the same. The center speaker is now so fine tuned for vocals. Surrounds are now needed to produce gun shots and crickets chirping, big full bass need not apply. Now we have Dolby Atmos speakers which don't produce LOUD, but adds FULL to a three dimensional sound stage by bouncing sound off the ceiling. I have just now arrived at beginning to understand surround sound. With Atmos, I am once again lost. Can the new Atmos speakers "keep up" with the strong Klipsch L/R/C and surround sound speakers Klipsch is famous for? I think the concept of "keeping up" might be an antiquated expression referring to the sound stage of a by-gone era. If an Atmos module "meets Atmos specs" that might be the only criteria one need ask about. It's a new (Atmos) world. im not sure how else to explain what I'm saying? I can assure you that if I put an rc-62ii between my cinema left and right speakers it would be drowned out at a certain point on the volume and would just be left behind IF I was to go any louder. That is what I am saying. I guess they would be fine for real world listening levels. Just wondering for demo purposes and getting a little crazy with the volume if they speaker could stay behaved or would it be at its max acoustic output? If this is still to hard to grasp what I'm saying don't worry about it. I'm sure I'll eventually end up with these or the towers as I like trying all new Klipsch products. So if not I will find out for myself one day. I do understand exactly what you are saying. Remember when you calibrate the AVR, the trim levels balance it all out. What you are implying happens at REALLY loud levels, like beyond reference levels. This has nothing to do with Atmos, but as you have stated just a simple sensitivity difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Jay do you know the max output of a single or a pair? That would help me understand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay L Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Jay do you know the max output of a single or a pair? That would help me understand I don't, as I did not test for that. I will defer to the power compression requirement set by Dolby; it passed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 thats too bad. Cause saying something passed a test doesn't really tell us anything. sorry guess I'm hard to please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay L Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 (edited) thats too bad. Cause saying something passed a test doesn't really tell us anything. sorry guess I'm hard to please. It does tell you something, it tells you you are buying a product that is certified to give you a great Atmos experience. People who design this stuff really do put in hours of R&D. They test many different configurations until they find the best solutions. This applies to more things than just Atmos, I am talking in general about different audio technologies. Yes you are hard to please, and that is okay. Edited July 17, 2015 by Jay L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TasDom Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Weren't the VBAT line of surrounds in the cinema series designed with Atmos in mind? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay L Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Weren't the VBAT line of surrounds in the cinema series designed with Atmos in mind? No, that is another type of WDST Klipsch style surround. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TasDom Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Ok. I guess this threw me off but this discussion is focused on the "up-firing" speakers VBATVirtual Boundary Array Technology (VBAT) Cinema Surround speakers utilize a pair of patented skewed horns for an extremely wide dispersion pattern-perfect as a sound wall for the latest digital sound formats such as Dolby Atmos™. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay L Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Yes, they certainly will work great when used on side walls as surrounds such as in a Dolby Atmos soundtrack. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 ok not gonna lie, I'm about to jump into the atmos game. I'm thinking the x4200 would be the way to go. with the dts:x available for it. would that make the most sense nismo? the 4100 can be found cheap on A4less but the dts seems like it won't be an option for it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nismo Posted July 17, 2015 Author Share Posted July 17, 2015 (edited) ok not gonna lie, I'm about to jump into the atmos game. I'm thinking the x4200 would be the way to go. with the dts:x available for it. would that make the most sense nismo? the 4100 can be found cheap on A4less but the dts seems like it won't be an option for it? I'm a Denon guy (that all I've owned since the 90's)... so I'm slightly biased, but I'd grab the x4200, especially with DTS-X. The 4200 wasn't available last Fall when I picked up the x4100 (DTS-X wasn't available then either). Keep in mind, you only have 2 dedicated terminals available to connect a pair of front Atmos height speakers directly. When adding additional pairs of Atmos speakers... you need to use the available "Height" pre-outs and a separate amp for each additional channel. The 4200 will support a total of 6 Atmos height speakers (3 pair). The x5200 (135wpc) will support 8 Atmos Height Speakers (4 pair) 2 pair via terminals, 2 pair via pre-outs. Plus, the (9-channel) x5200 can do 5.2.4 without the pre-out or the need for an extra amp (but no DTS-X). The x4200 can do 5.2.2 (as is), it can do 5.2.6 with the pre-outs. Onkyo has 2 new models that decode both Atmos & DTS-X: The RZ-800 (135wpc) & the RZ-900 (140wpc). Both have 4 height terminals (2 pair) & 1 height pre-out... for a total of 6 Atmos speakers (3 pair). DST-X will come on strong, they won;t let DD have all the fun. So competing formats will generate good authoring in the future. I already have my 1st DTS-X Blu-ray (full feature) movie disc... Ex-Machina (it just came out Tuesday). Looking forward to watching it this weekend. Edited July 17, 2015 by Nismo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 (edited) The 4200 will support a total of 6 Atmos height speakers (3 pair). ok this is where i get lost. seems like it is a 7.2 receiver. then it says there are 7 amps which i get adding a 2 channel amp would be fine for the ceiling speakers. but it says max number of processing channels is 9.2? I'm staying with 7 main channels no matter what. unless when i move i can not accolade speakers behind me for some reason then i will change to 5.1 again.. but could you elaborate on how you get more than 9.2 when it says that is the max? EDIT: ok i see what you are saying about using the terminals and the pre outs. but with 7 amps i would have to power 2 speakers additionally anyways. but still when it says max processing? i need that explained to me Edited July 17, 2015 by Scrappydue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nismo Posted July 17, 2015 Author Share Posted July 17, 2015 (edited) The 4200 will support a total of 6 Atmos height speakers (3 pair). ok this is where i get lost. seems like it is a 7.2 receiver. then it says there are 7 amps which i get adding a 2 channel amp would be fine for the ceiling speakers. but it says max number of processing channels is 9.2? I'm staying with 7 main channels no matter what. unless when i move i can not accolade speakers behind me for some reason then i will change to 5.1 again.. but could you elaborate on how you get more than 9.2 when it says that is the max? EDIT: ok i see what you are saying about using the terminals and the pre outs. but with 7 amps i would have to power 2 speakers additionally anyways. but still when it says max processing? i need that explained to me 5.2.4 would cover the 9 channel processing capability with the 4200 (front & rear pair of Atmos Heights / 1 pair via Height terminal / 1 pair via Height pre-out & external 2 ch Amp. There is a 3rd pair of Heights available via pre-outs = 5.2.6 There may or may not be a discrete processing of the Atmos track for the 3rd pair of Height speakers, but should a space be large enough to require a 3 set of heights... it would most likely carry or reproduce from the existing height processing channels to fill in or extend your space. My X4100 is 7 channel (5.2.2)... or 9 channels with an external amp (5.2.4), but according to Denon (with the addition of an external amp) it supports 13.2 via the pre-outs. If you're staying 7 channel (5.2.2) then you are good to go either way. Edited July 17, 2015 by Nismo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nismo Posted July 17, 2015 Author Share Posted July 17, 2015 Here's my X4100. 2 dedicated Height Terminals (1 pair of Front Atmos Heights). Plus 4 additional Atmos Heights via Pre-outs (2 pair of Atmos Heights / Rear & Center?). 6 total, or 3 pair. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sancho Panza Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 How about firing down, from the ceiling? Yes, they certainly will work great when used on side walls as surrounds such as in a Dolby Atmos soundtrack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nismo Posted July 17, 2015 Author Share Posted July 17, 2015 (edited) Denon is going to offer DTS-X in select AVR's via firmware update. Doubtful, but tomorrow I'll check to see if there are future plans for the X4100 to be part of the Free upgrade. From Denon: In 2015, Denon introduces DTS:X to selected AV Receivers. It just needs to be unlocked with a free-of-charge firmware update coming later this year. Read on below link how to unlock DTS:X in your AVR once it is available. Edited July 17, 2015 by Nismo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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