Atmos Questions...CINEMA style

[Scrappydue]

ok first question. is the denon x4100 gonna be able to be upgraded to dts:x? doesn't seem like it. if i want both options a 4200 will have to be it?

 

ok on to the speakers? id like to either get the kpt-8000 or the kpt-8060. one has a 90x90 horn and the other a 90x60. not sure if one would be better than the other? since this is object based and normally recommend in ceiling id assume either of these would be better. i could also get something like the cp-6t or similar if aiming them at my LP would be better. but everywhere I've read says that is bad. but those would for sure be easiest to mount on my ceiling. 

 

so bring it on nismo! fill me in. I'm thinking hard about making the switch even though i said i would wait. 

[Paducah Home Theater]

For actual ceiling speakers in an otherwise all pro audio setup I'd be looking at some of these.  

 

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/coaxial-speaker-kits/volt-10lxe.html

[NBPK402]

I will be running JBL 8320s for my Atmos setup...Mine are angled just the KPT-8060s are. I had heard that the ceiling speakers should be firing straight at the floor, so I had some custom brackets made that makes the speaker fronts parallel to the floor. You might want to look into something like that too.

[Nismo]

Sounds like a plan... unfortunately Denon does not offer a firmware upgrade for DTS:X with the 4100.  

 

And, the 4100 is not HDCP 2.2 complaint (the 4200 is HDCP 2.2). Other than that, the features for the 4100 & 4200 are pretty much identical.

 

On the plus side, currently a (BNIB) 4100 is only $799 (with full 3 year warranty), so that a tremendous value for 9.1 x 125wpc with Atmos.

 

If you run 2 front heights you're good to go as is. If you run 2 front & 2 rear height you need an external amp to power the rears.

 

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For non-Atmos speakers, if I'm not mistaken all 3 options you posted are similar in price (give or take). The KPT-8060's have the fullest range & would seem to match up the best with your 904's. For all practical purposes Atmos Height speakers, are "surround speakers" so I doubt you would notice any significant difference between the 8060's & the 8000 based on the content being sent to them. What to use just depends on what you might already have on hand, and/or where you have the best deal available for something new. The benefit with the CP-6T... is that they can hang horizontally & since you room is long....19.5" of the CP-6T could have some benefit filling the length of your room, especially with both front & rear pairs mounted along the sides (the narrower 8060 & 8000 would both hang vertical angled down, and might be more localized in your space).

 

 

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With non-Atmos options I think you would want to have the best horn to cover the high range. The 8060 would seem to be the clear winner there. When I made the switch from concentric Atmos modules (Atlantic Tech 44-DA's) to the Klipsch horn loaded RP-140SA modules... the high end was distinctly better, more crisp & pronounced. The horn made a big difference. You already have the full range covered with your 904's & subs. Since your missing out on all the Atmos specific mojo (frequency response, treble curve & the directivity standards) the 8060's seem to click more boxes.

[Nismo]

Originally you were thinking of adding only a front pair. Is that still the plan... or are you considering to have both front & rear pairs?

[K5SS]

Nismo is correct about the X4100. The price sure is tempting but the technology just isn't there. I have been dying to but a new receiver but I have held out for DTS:X and especially HDCP 2.2. 

 

The Yamaha Aventage 2050 sure look like it checks all of the boxes but I am a Pioneer Elite guy, just waiting for new info on the 3 new SC models. 

[Nismo]

Another question: Since you are not using wide dispersion in-ceiling or upward firing Dolby Atmos Enabled Speakers, placement will be crucial with going the traditional Height Speaker route. With your room being long, that might take some experimentation. When using Height speakers (non-Atmos) Dolby recommends placement on the front & back walls. While that would be ideal in most spaces, not sure how effectively front & back will work in your long room. 

 

Not a perfect scenario, but since your room is long, you might have to try side placement. But with side placement, you may have to stagger the each pair, with either the Left Front or Right Front slightly closer than the other (same off-set placement for the rear). The Atmos Renderer works in stereo paths that pan from left to right, right to left, front to back etc. If each side pair were placed an equal distance (from the front wall) they would be facing each other & that might cancel out (or minimize) the object panning path. 

 

With the Dolby recommended front & back wall placement.... the speakers are pointed at the MLP, allowing for a stereo pan of the object path. (the speakers are not pointed at each other). Hopefully the front & back wall placement works in your space. Check page 34, 35 & 36 of the PDF link below:

 

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-atmos/dolby-atmos-home-theater-installation-guidelines.pdf

 

Also, the Front L/R Height pair work with the Front  L/R 904's... so you will want to place the Heights near the 904's (not near or closer to the MLP). Same for the Back L/R Pair, place them near the Rear Surrounds, not near or closer to the MLP.  

 

There is also a Dolby spec for how high up a DAES (Dolby Atmos Enabled Speaker) is placed/positioned. It needs to be just slightly above ear level, generally just slightly higher than half the height of your wall. I would imagine that same spec would apply when using a Height speaker in your instance. That placement helps to maximize the Atmos object panning path, eliminating a traditional direct radiating effect. You don't want it placed high, right at or near the ceiling, so that again might present an issue with the recommended front /back wall placement. Obviously they need to be placed above your existing mains & surrounds. So you might have to lower your existing surrounds, so the new Height speakers are placed higher.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Nismo

[Scrappydue]

Another question: Since you are not using wide dispersion in-ceiling or upward firing Dolby Atmos Enabled Speakers, placement will be crucial with going the traditional Height Speaker route. With your room being long, that might take some experimentation. When using Height speakers (non-Atmos) Dolby recommends placement on the front & back walls. While that would be ideal in most spaces, not sure how effectively front & back will work in your long room.

Not a perfect scenario, but since your room is long, you might have to try side placement. But with side placement, you may have to stagger the each pair, with either the Left Front or Right Front slightly closer than the other (same off-set placement for the rear). The Atmos Renderer works in stereo paths that pan from left to right, right to left, front to back etc. If each side pair were placed an equal distance (from the front wall) they would be facing each other & that might cancel out (or minimize) the object panning path.

With the Dolby recommended front & back wall placement.... the speakers are pointed at the MLP, allowing for a stereo pan of the object path. (the speakers are not pointed at each other). Hopefully the front & back wall placement works in your space. Check page 34, 35 & 36 of the PDF link below:

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-atmos/dolby-atmos-home-theater-installation-guidelines.pdf

Also, the Front L/R Height pair work with the Front L/R 904's... so you will want to place the Heights near the 904's (not near or closer to the MLP). Same for the Back L/R Pair, place them near the Rear Surrounds, not near or closer to the MLP.

There is also a Dolby spec for how high up a DAES (Dolby Atmos Enabled Speaker) is placed/positioned. It needs to be just slightly above ear level, generally just slightly higher than half the height of your wall. I would imagine that same spec would apply when using a Height speaker in your instance. That placement helps to maximize the Atmos object panning path, eliminating a traditional direct radiating effect. You don't want it placed high, right at or near the ceiling, so that again might present an issue with the recommended front /back wall placement. Obviously they need to be placed above your existing mains & surrounds. So you might have to lower your existing surrounds, so the new Height speakers are placed higher.

HOLD UP!!! I have a regular 7.1 right now. I just wanna add ceiling speakers. Two for sure. Maybe four. But not sure I can squeeze everything. But what is this non-atmos height channel talk? I don't have high enough ceilings to even consider height channels. Nor the width for wides. 11'8" wide and the whole from wall is speakers. 7'4" to ceiling at my speakers are around 5' tall. Heights would make zero sense here.

[Scrappydue]

Ok re read it a couple times. Think I get what you are saying. I need to measure and see what I have space for.

And I can't move surrounds down at all. They won't be at the right angle anymore PLUS everyone will smash into them. They are very obtrusive in the room. Seems like something I need to make sure is gonna be beneficial before I dive in.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Scrappydue

[Jay L]

The height modules should be NOT be higher than half the height of the ceiling. Ideally all speakers are 1.2 meters from the floor. Dolby recommends In/On ceiling speakers have a 90x90 dispersion pattern. I don't see how you can fit a massive pro speaker on the ceiling without it being 5ft. from your head?

[Superdave]

I for one am happy to see you "looking" into this! I know you already have a sweet set-up. Scrappy, you will def love your system even more!

[Nismo]

I guess with all your speaker selections, I thought you were planning to use them as traditional Wall Mounted Heights. The 8000 & 8060's are angled or pointed down to the MLP as a wall mount (they even offer variable angles with the insert adapter). So, you are planning to go ceiling mount with the 8000 or 8060?

 

In that case why not just go traditional ceiling speakers like the CDT 5650 C ll or the CDT 5800 C ll? 

[Scrappydue]

Dolby recommends In/On ceiling speakers have a 90x90 dispersion pattern

so the 8000 would be the recommended one? its the one with the 90x90 horn.

 

 

massive pro speaker

 7" deep isn't any deeper than the new atmos module? i mean i get what its purpose is but the cinema is not any deeper. so if either were used to hand from my ceiling and face flat as nismo suggested they would be the same.

 

 

I for one am happy to see you "looking" into this! I know you already have a sweet set-up. Scrappy, you will def love your system even more!

 

thank you! gonna research as much as i can before i dive into this. like i said if its a waste of time i will wait. 

 

So, you are planning to go ceiling mount with the 8000 or 8060?

i thought this was the only option? modules or ceiling.

 

In that case why not just go traditional ceiling speakers like the CDT 5650 C ll or the CDT 5800 C ll? 

cause they aint cinema. i know i say this a lot but the cinema stuff is a completely different level than the reference stuff. cinema or pro will be the only options for me.  

[Jay L]

If you insist on the cinema line, whatever the smallest one is will be fine.

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk

[Scrappydue]

If you insist on the cinema line, whatever the smallest one is will be fine.

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk

this is the forum for the klipsch crazies! i insist! 

 

and if atmos really is that cool, when are their going to be palladium modules offered?? 

[Jay L]

No matter how you get there, you will never be without Atmos again. It is that much better!

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk

[NBPK402]

 

If you insist on the cinema line, whatever the smallest one is will be fine.

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk

this is the forum for the klipsch crazies! i insist! 

 

and if atmos really is that cool, when are their going to be palladium modules offered?? 

 

If you go with ceiling mounted speakers make sure they are well mounted... I picked the speakers I picked because they only weigh 11lbs (whereas my surrounds are 19lbs each), and are only 9" deep.

[Coleman]

I've also been thinking about diving into Atmos but going the RP140 modules on top of my 7's then maybe two more in the rear. Suppose putting them on top of my RS62II's would be a bad decision? The 62's are 12-18 inches above my head and about one foot behind me. So would stacking them on my 62's be a bad decision? That's really the only other place I could put them because my room is only 1900 cu ft. Then ofc I have to sell my beloved 4520 and thinking about the Marantz 7010.

[Jay L]

I've also been thinking about diving into Atmos but going the RP140 modules on top of my 7's then maybe two more in the rear. Suppose putting them on top of my RS62II's would be a bad decision? The 62's are 12-18 inches above my head and about one foot behind me. So would stacking them on my 62's be a bad decision? That's really the only other place I could put them because my room is only 1900 cu ft. Then ofc I have to sell my beloved 4520 and thinking about the Marantz 7010.

The height doesn't sound like a big problem. I don't see how you can sit a 140sa on an RS62, it will fall off. Also it is best to not have them against a wall. If you need to compromise, how about using a small shelf to put them on?

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk

[Scrappydue]

I've also been thinking about diving into Atmos but going the RP140 modules on top of my 7's then maybe two more in the rear. Suppose putting them on top of my RS62II's would be a bad decision? The 62's are 12-18 inches above my head and about one foot behind me. So would stacking them on my 62's be a bad decision? That's really the only other place I could put them because my room is only 1900 cu ft. Then ofc I have to sell my beloved 4520 and thinking about the Marantz 7010.

do it!!! i dont think it would hurt anything at all as log as they physically fit on them!