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mustang guy

Minimum wage. Should it be $15?

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My son Nick is doing a minimum wage type survey for his capstone at Marshall U. If you would take a minute and fill it out, I'd appreciate it. It is completely anonymous.

 

Here is the link:  

 

 
He wants to get 250 responses and he's only had 61 so far.
 
Thanks to all who take the time to help him out...
 
Cheers,
 
Craig

 

 

Does he want only people living in the US to answer?

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MR. FJD,

People are surprised to learn that the USA has a very low index of upward mobility. Far lower than most other OECD countries.

Meaning: not meant make it out of the lower classes.

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MR. FJD,

People are surprised to learn that the USA has a very low index of upward mobility. Far lower than most other OECD countries.

Meaning: not meant make it out of the lower classes.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

 

Can you direct us to a list of the various nations' mobility indexes?

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A while back I posted a link  which was something like 36 maps which describe the United States.  There were lots of interesting stats.  One map was quite illuminating because it showed the locations color coding the probability of a person born to the lower economic strata for improving his/her own economic strata.  In other words where is it the most likely and least likely to pull oneself up by the proverbial bootstraps.  Some places are clearly more predisposed for this and others are very discouraging.  I posit that the majority of opinions regarding wage concepts are highly influenced by their locus of experience.

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Jeff, here's one graph pertinent to your question:

GINI is a quantitative measurement on a scale of 0 to 1 (1=complete inequality) of national economies.

 

25-maps-economic-inequality.jpg

Edited by oldtimer

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MR. FJD,

People are surprised to learn that the USA has a very low index of upward mobility. Far lower than most other OECD countries.

Meaning: not meant make it out of the lower classes.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

 

 

http://all-that-is-interesting.com/maps-that-explain-America

 

There's lots of interesting information but if you want to go straight to the map mentioned, hit previous instead of going forward, it's slide 33.

 

 

 

It sure is an eye-opening map on slide 33. 

 

My Grandfather on my Dad's side was first generation to come to the U.S. and started working in a grist mill but soon went over to the coal mines since the mining company would lease the miners land and allow them to build a small house (very primitive with no indoor plumbing, electricity or gas) and farm the land.  Of course, there was no equity accumulated in this manner and to survive and make ends meet most of the children had to drop out of school to help on the farm.  Similar on my Mom's side; however, my Grandfather on that side managed to find work in the steel mill, did a lot of fishing and trapping to supplement, and was able to buy a house.  Although, it was during a period in time before the United Steelworkers and he could not afford an upgrade house with indoor plumbing until my Mom was 16. 

 

 

 

_ upward-mobility-in-america-map.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

.

post-36163-0-90020000-1447023482_thumb.j

Edited by Fjd
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MR. FJD,

People are surprised to learn that the USA has a very low index of upward mobility. Far lower than most other OECD countries.

Meaning: not meant make it out of the lower classes.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

Can you direct us to a list of the various nations' mobility indexes?
I read it in a book, and sadly it may take me some time to dig the reference. It surprised me. We often tout upward mobility, but when tested, it's more myth than fact. I will try to dig it for you, but it might elude me for a bit.

Edit. In rough terms, that map 33 seems about like the specifications I read.

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Edited by jo56steph74

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MR. FJD,

People are surprised to learn that the USA has a very low index of upward mobility. Far lower than most other OECD countries.

Meaning: not meant make it out of the lower classes.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

Can you direct us to a list of the various nations' mobility indexes?
I read it in a book, and sadly it may take me some time to dig the reference. It surprised me. We often tout upward mobility, but when tested, it's more myth than fact. I will try to dig it for you, but it might elude me for a bit.

Edit. In rough terms, that map 33 seems about like the specifications I read.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

 

For the point you are making these figures must be compared with the same figures from other oecd countries.

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There also a very important corollary, which is those born to the upper classes stay in the upper classes. What this means is that wealth concentrates. Well, that alone should not surprise.

Upper Class is everything when it comes to being in position for both wealth and influential office. The upper class has very extensive "training" (by informal influence and formal schooling) and stick togetherness. Father's bring sons into one circles of power. Mother's bring daughters into society. They all stick together like glue. Jobs of power and influence are tracked for these families. Marriages are encouraged within the class. Many special institutions groom these people.

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There also a very important corollary, which is those born to the upper classes stay in the upper classes. What this means is that wealth concentrates. Well, that alone should not surprise.

Upper Class is everything when it comes to being in position for both wealth and influential office. The upper class has very extensive "training" (by informal influence and formal schooling) and stick togetherness. Father's bring sons into one circles of power. Mother's bring daughters into society. They all stick together like glue. Jobs of power and influence are tracked for these families. Marriages are encouraged within the class. Many special institutions groom these people.

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There are judgments being made everywhere you turn.  When I made the transition to the consulting firms after my college degree work, I decided to take a class in dinner etiquette and we had intensive instruction on everything a person needed to do to eat a seven course meal.  Its not that someone will compliment good etiquette, but the whispers and judgments sure spread quickly in some of these circles about the person that shows poor etiquette. 

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Done, but he should redesign it to allow for self-employed people, which is a chunk of jobs in the country. Indeed, more every day as large corps and small business turn actual employee wage earners into phony "independent contractors".

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There also a very important corollary, which is those born to the upper classes stay in the upper classes. What this means is that wealth concentrates. Well, that alone should not surprise.

Upper Class is everything when it comes to being in position for both wealth and influential office. The upper class has very extensive "training" (by informal influence and formal schooling) and stick togetherness. Father's bring sons into one circles of power. Mother's bring daughters into society. They all stick together like glue. Jobs of power and influence are tracked for these families. Marriages are encouraged within the class. Many special institutions groom these people.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

Yes that's very true.  As  a devil's advocate (please allow me to introduce myself) the social aspect in and of itself does not preclude upward mobility, even given a case for obvious hindrance.  Economic theory, which is perhaps a step above social interaction theory demands something a little more rigorous.  I am not discounting the obvious inherent bias towards wealth keeping to its own.  Yet just because certain people start with greater advantage (i.e. even the prospect of going to college which presupposes academic achievement to a degree which is statistically shown to be influenced heavily by environmental and parental influences) does not logically imply that others beginning with lesser means cannot excel. 

 

Some would point to this argument as proof of systemic superiority of the status quo.  Yet statistically there will always be outliers in practically any system.  The key to what the thread is debating is where on the economic continuum does an agreeable balance lie?  Personally, and this is the first sentence since my last few posts where I am not just reporting stats but injecting an opinion, the balance happens when both labor and owners are equally empowered, and not just locally but globally.  Then you have the conditions for an equally desirable outcome in a negotiated environment.

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Two things:

 

Oldie, I wonder what an overlay of PPP wealth per capita would look like, sitting on top of the GINI map.  I wonder if there is possibly any correlation at all between GINI and median wealth.

 

Joe, the map of mobility only shows U.S. counties.  We can't use it to compare to the world without seeing something similar for other nations.  However, I was actually pleasantly surprised, not disappointed.  Think about it.  1 out of 10 people in the bottom 20% in NYC rise to the top 20%.  That's good!  Even in the "bad" South, the number is 1 in 20.  That's good!  What that tells me is that, on the whole, everybody should know a healthy number of people who have climbed out of the bottom and risen to the top.  Nice!  We need to have plenty of examples like that.  It shows the promise of a great nation.  (I do realize the figures might be higher in other nations, but I am not comparing to other nations.  I am just looking at mobility within our own ranks, and it looks decent.)

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Jeff see my post 249 and subsequent posts.  One thing I have found in discussions like these going back decades is that on the one hand some will compare the US with the rest of the world and on the other hand others will say "I don't care about the rest of the world, I live in the US and I compare myself to the rest of the country."

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On a side note, I'm not sure of the laws at the time when I was in high school; however, when I started in this industry as a high school student, there was some type of clause somewhere where the company could pay us less than minimum wage that they called the student wage.

 

That law may be what got nicknamed "The McDonalds Law."  I think McDonalds lobbied to get it.  I believe it stated that less than the Federal minimum wage could be paid to "students or learners," for a certain length of time.  Some employers simply let workers go when that length of time was up.  Even a dental clinic I knew of did that with the fledgling dental assistants they were continuously supplied with by community colleges.

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Jeff see my post 249 and subsequent posts. One thing I have found in discussions like these going back decades is that on the one hand some will compare the US with the rest of the world and on the other hand others will say "I don't care about the rest of the world, I live in the US and I compare myself to the rest of the country."

For my purpose, I use comparison to other countries as an illustration that something is practical or possible. For example, our GINI is rather high (bad) compared with other developed countries. That says to me that we can engineer our GINI to a better number through some process. If one claims a great which had never been accomplished it losses credibility as an idea.

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Jeff see my post 249 and subsequent posts.  One thing I have found in discussions like these going back decades is that on the one hand some will compare the US with the rest of the world and on the other hand others will say "I don't care about the rest of the world, I live in the US and I compare myself to the rest of the country."

 

Yes, I saw those. It appears on those points, we are pretty much in agreement.

 

Also, I agree the baseline will vary dramatically, depending on whether you want to compare to the rest of the world or the rest of the nation.  Because we are the most materialistic nation on the planet, I tend to want to compare to the rest of the world.  Plus, when you look at it from that angle, you realize just how much you have to be thankful for.

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Jeff see my post 249 and subsequent posts. One thing I have found in discussions like these going back decades is that on the one hand some will compare the US with the rest of the world and on the other hand others will say "I don't care about the rest of the world, I live in the US and I compare myself to the rest of the country."

For my purpose, I use comparison to other countries as an illustration that something is practical or possible. For example, our GINI is rather high (bad) compared with other developed countries. That says to me that we can engineer our GINI to a better number through some process. If one claims a great which had never been accomplished it losses credibility as an idea.

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The problem with the GINI is it can look good when everybody is equally poor and starving to death,  Sure, it measures distribution, and sure, in a land with our level of wealth, we can see that there can be a more equal distribution without the need for untold suffering.  That's all and well.  But it doesn't answer the magic question:  Will a lower GINI make us better-off on average?  Maybe; maybe not.  There is a lot to be said for wealth concentrations.  Even Alexis de Tocqueville commented briefly on it when he said great nations rise and become powerful as a result of concentrated wealth.  

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Jeff see my post 249 and subsequent posts.  One thing I have found in discussions like these going back decades is that on the one hand some will compare the US with the rest of the world and on the other hand others will say "I don't care about the rest of the world, I live in the US and I compare myself to the rest of the country."

 

Yes, I saw those. It appears on those points, we are pretty much in agreement.

 

Also, I agree the baseline will vary dramatically, depending on whether you want to compare to the rest of the world or the rest of the nation.  Because we are the most materialistic nation on the planet, I tend to want to compare to the rest of the world.  Plus, when you look at it from that angle, you realize just how much you have to be thankful for.

 

We have a lot to be thankful for.  It allows us to want and try to make the world even better.

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