Minimum wage. Should it be $15?

[Jim Naseum]

Income mobility in the USA is lower than in many other OECD nations. Perhaps more important is the differential between belief and reality. People believe the mobility is very high, and reality just doesn't match.

It's common data you can easily find on the internet.

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[Jeff Matthews]

Now that we've been schooled

 

It’s not a political problem; it’s a math problem.

 

Love some of the write ins at the bottom

 

Great article!  I wonder what has come of it now that the new wage has kicked-in for a handful of months.  How many closed?  How have prices changed?  Etc.

[Jim Naseum]

Now that we've been schooled

It’s not a political problem; it’s a math problem.

Love some of the write ins at the bottom

The source is just a free market think tank. Would you imagine they say anything else?

Quote

Washington Policy Center (WPC) is an independent, non-profit, think tank that promotes sound public policy based on free-market solutions.

End

Yeah, if you believe in free market policy, you won't like minimum wages.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

[Jeff Matthews]

Income mobility in the USA is lower than in many other OECD nations. Perhaps more important is the differential between belief and reality. People believe the mobility is very high, and reality just doesn't match.

It's common data you can easily find on the internet.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

 

They seem to flock here from everywhere for some reason. Maybe it's a mistaken belief in mobility.  Or maybe our stagnate bottom is better than their upwardly-mobile "yuppies."  You have to wonder what high mobility is like in Afghanistan.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Jeff Matthews

[Jeff Matthews]

 

Now that we've been schooled

It’s not a political problem; it’s a math problem.

Love some of the write ins at the bottom

The source is just a free market think tank. Would you imagine they say anything else?

Quote

Washington Policy Center (WPC) is an independent, non-profit, think tank that promotes sound public policy based on free-market solutions.

End

Yeah, if you believe in free market policy, you won't like minimum wages.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

 

 

Forget the source.  That's not the point.  The point is that the source directs us to a locale where the experiment has been tried.  It gave us the time-frame as well... before and after April 1, 2015.  From there, further inquiry could be made, and possibly, more informed opinions can be drawn.

[Jim Naseum]

Income mobility in the USA is lower than in many other OECD nations. Perhaps more important is the differential between belief and reality. People believe the mobility is very high, and reality just doesn't match.

It's common data you can easily find on the internet.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

They seem to flock here from everywhere for some reason. Maybe it's a mistaken belief in mobility. Or maybe our stagnate bottom is better than their upwardly-mobile "yuppies."

Everywhere? Are they flocking hate from Germany?

They sure are flocking here from Mexico, but where else do you see flocking?

Income mobility in the USA is lower than in many other OECD nations. Perhaps more important is the differential between belief and reality. People believe the mobility is very high, and reality just doesn't match.

It's common data you can easily find on the internet.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

They seem to flock here from everywhere for some reason. Maybe it's a mistaken belief in mobility. Or maybe our stagnate bottom is better than their upwardly-mobile "yuppies."

Everywhere? Are they flocking hate from Germany?

They sure are flocking here from Mexico, but where else do you see flocking?

Here is the list of the Top 10 sending countries for US immigration for 2012 and 2013. Latest data.

Mexico

China

India

Philippines

Dominican republic

Cuba

Vietnam

South Korea

Columbia

Haiti

What countries are missing? Where's Germany or England? Or any other high wage economy?

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[Travis In Austin]

it is shaped and exists in accordance with the public policy and moral code established and allowed at each of those levels.

What's the moral code established for Chase Bank, or Monsanto, or Massey Energy?

That's the point. They operate within a "code" or boundaries. Those boundries consist of the law, constitutional, statutory, regulatory and common. The political system determines what is legal, illegal, prohibited, allowable or otherwise. It establishes the "morals" or "core values" under which the companies or individuals operate.

The law doesn't match "morals" because morals are not universally agreed upon.

The easiest example to refer to is the economy we started with was not capitalism, but a slave economy. I would hope there would be universal agreement today that slavery is immoral, both then and now, but of course not everyone agreed about that back then.

Slavery was of course abolished, but it took another 100 years, at least, to be at a point where the law was applied somewhat equally to all.

The economy has transformed numerous times since then. Public policy, established by law is what causes those shifts. The biggest example of that was whether there should be a National Bank.

[Jim Naseum]

it is shaped and exists in accordance with the public policy and moral code established and allowed at each of those levels.

What's the moral code established for Chase Bank, or Monsanto, or Massey Energy?

That's the point. They operate within a "code" or boundaries. Those boundries consist of the law, constitutional, statutory, regulatory and common. The political system determines what is legal, illegal, prohibited, allowable or otherwise. It establishes the "morals" or "core values" under which the companies or individuals operate.

The law doesn't match "morals" because morals are not universally agreed upon.

The easiest example to refer to is the economy we started with was not capitalism, but a slave economy. I would hope there would be universal agreement today that slavery is immoral, both then and now, but of course not everyone agreed about that back then.

Slavery was of course abolished, but it took another 100 years, at least, to be at a point where the law was applied somewhat equally to all.

The economy has transformed numerous times since then. Public policy, established by law is what causes those shifts. The biggest example of that was whether there should be a National Bank.

You continue to say they have morals, but unless they can be seen, or more literally read, they don't exist. I actually posted the full text of the Hippocratic oath, the military oath, and several others. A moral code is not a notion, it's written down for all to see.

Somehow, we're not communicating. I have never seen a moral code for capitalism. I've never seen a moral code in a corporate prospectus, because they're is no moral code in capitalism.

Please, compare your doctor to Monsanto or Chase to see what I mean. I mean a literal Code of Ethics.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

[Jeff Matthews]

I mean a literal Code of Ethics.

 

 

Why must it be written?  Why must it be anything other than, "Follow the law?"

[Travis In Austin]

Income mobility in the USA is lower than in many other OECD nations. Perhaps more important is the differential between belief and reality. People believe the mobility is very high, and reality just doesn't match.

It's common data you can easily find on the internet.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

They seem to flock here from everywhere for some reason. Maybe it's a mistaken belief in mobility. Or maybe our stagnate bottom is better than their upwardly-mobile "yuppies." You have to wonder what high mobility is like in Afghanistan.

Pretty good if you are a drug lord. Don't we have a program where we are paying people thwre not to grow pot for hash production?

[Fjd]

 

 

Now that we've been schooled

It’s not a political problem; it’s a math problem.

Love some of the write ins at the bottom

The source is just a free market think tank. Would you imagine they say anything else?

Quote

Washington Policy Center (WPC) is an independent, non-profit, think tank that promotes sound public policy based on free-market solutions.

End

Yeah, if you believe in free market policy, you won't like minimum wages.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

 

 

Forget the source.  That's not the point.  The point is that the source directs us to a locale where the experiment has been tried.  It gave us the time-frame as well... before and after April 1, 2015.  From there, further inquiry could be made, and possibly, more informed opinions can be drawn.

 

 

 

 

Isn't the article in the link above from March 12, 2015 where it wouldn't have any data for the period after April 1, 2015?

 

It is subscription, but the article dated October 23, 2015 in the Puget Sound Business Journal (article data can be found other places online) indicates that "Since the wage hike passed on April 1^st, dozens of new restaurants have opened—including some by Douglas himself. The King County section of Seattle has issued 5,227 permits for food service establishments in Seattle so far this year, which means this year will have more openings than last, which had 5,458 permits. This also means 2015 will beat 2013, with 5,415 issued that year."

 

Maybe new permits in anticipation of replacing those restaurants planning on closing?  Although, I suspect that it is still much too early to draw any conclusions either way.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/print-edition/2015/10/23/apocolypse-not-15-and-the-cuts-that-never-came.html

[Jim Naseum]

In Practice

I'd like to see a requirement for all corporate charters to contain some nominal moral standards in exchange for the public granting the privilege of a corporate charter. We've long lost control of the charter process, and need to reclaim it.

When companies violate their moral clause they would lose their charter. That's a simple way to explain now a large part of the economy can be changed to serving the public interest.

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[Max2]

 

 

 

 

Do we really need to double it?   Aren't we just handing trophies out to the masses that don't deserve it?  This seems to fall in a pattern of entitlement where so many think they deserve, but so few are willing to step up and actually engage in their job for the additional pay.

 

What about welfare? 

 

Wont workers be denied for some assistance if they immediately start making 29K a year?

 

Wont the companies just start marking things up to cover the losses such as trucking companies have to do when the price of crude has them by the short hairs?

 

It will all trickle down to the few middle class including the marginal local mom and pop shops that are left which catch the brunt in the long term anyway.

 

If your argument is that workers don't deserve it, then what about when it goes the other direction: Do utility companies deserve minimum rates that guarantee profits? I just want to see if your holding each side to the same standard. 

 

 

 

What is the same standard?   When has it ever been "the same standard" ?

 

 

You have to carve out your own brother.  You cant cry on the sidewalk forever about corporate America and what the man gets and what you don't. You either go after it or you fall in the cracks. People here would laugh at my "base" pay and these new 15 dollar an hour folks would say, "no way" If I told them my base. I have to sell something and a lot of it to make my world go around.

 

Sure, this world is far from perfect, but you will never get what you're preaching here.

 

 

You want that utility company to be successful so it keeps paying dividends on the stock you own in said account. Yes, we can complain about our insurance policies or utility bill that keeps going up, but you must gather back what you can from other avenues. Work is out there, better jobs are out there away from these gateway entry positions.  You have to want it, and I will be one to say that the majority of these people don't have the desire to handle a more responsible position than what they have. 

 

 

Maybe you didn't understand my question?

 

I'm asking if you are applying the same reasoning for companies that you apply for workers. If companies can get profits "guaranteed" by government, why shouldn't workers also get a guaranteed a minimum wage? How is your reasoning different for those two economic actors?

 

 

McDonalds has guaranteed profits from Uncle Sam? Because food service is going to be a big bleeder.

 

29K a year to dump fries when the beeper goes off, still screw up my order and still fill my fry carton only half full.  Sure lets pay them that.  Meanwhile @ almost 60K a year we would have Highschool drops out couples that can buy a modest house, lease a 3 series bimmer. If the true working class wages were adjusted as well we would have a nice little Utopia in store here.

[Jeff Matthews]

 

 

 

Now that we've been schooled

It’s not a political problem; it’s a math problem.

Love some of the write ins at the bottom

The source is just a free market think tank. Would you imagine they say anything else?

Quote

Washington Policy Center (WPC) is an independent, non-profit, think tank that promotes sound public policy based on free-market solutions.

End

Yeah, if you believe in free market policy, you won't like minimum wages.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

 

 

Forget the source.  That's not the point.  The point is that the source directs us to a locale where the experiment has been tried.  It gave us the time-frame as well... before and after April 1, 2015.  From there, further inquiry could be made, and possibly, more informed opinions can be drawn.

 

 

 

 

Isn't the article in the link above from March 12, 2015 where it wouldn't have any data for the period after April 1, 2015?

 

It is subscription, but the article dated October 23, 2015 in the Puget Sound Business Journal (article data can be found other places online) indicates that "Since the wage hike passed on April 1^st, dozens of new restaurants have opened—including some by Douglas himself. The King County section of Seattle has issued 5,227 permits for food service establishments in Seattle so far this year, which means this year will have more openings than last, which had 5,458 permits. This also means 2015 will beat 2013, with 5,415 issued that year."

 

Maybe new permits in anticipation of replacing those restaurants planning on closing?  Although, I suspect that it is still much too early to draw any conclusions either way.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/print-edition/2015/10/23/apocolypse-not-15-and-the-cuts-that-never-came.html

 

 

Good discussion and good information.

[Fjd]

 

 

 

 

Now that we've been schooled

It’s not a political problem; it’s a math problem.

Love some of the write ins at the bottom

The source is just a free market think tank. Would you imagine they say anything else?

Quote

Washington Policy Center (WPC) is an independent, non-profit, think tank that promotes sound public policy based on free-market solutions.

End

Yeah, if you believe in free market policy, you won't like minimum wages.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

 

 

Forget the source.  That's not the point.  The point is that the source directs us to a locale where the experiment has been tried.  It gave us the time-frame as well... before and after April 1, 2015.  From there, further inquiry could be made, and possibly, more informed opinions can be drawn.

 

 

 

 

Isn't the article in the link above from March 12, 2015 where it wouldn't have any data for the period after April 1, 2015?

 

It is subscription, but the article dated October 23, 2015 in the Puget Sound Business Journal (article data can be found other places online) indicates that "Since the wage hike passed on April 1^st, dozens of new restaurants have opened—including some by Douglas himself. The King County section of Seattle has issued 5,227 permits for food service establishments in Seattle so far this year, which means this year will have more openings than last, which had 5,458 permits. This also means 2015 will beat 2013, with 5,415 issued that year."

 

Maybe new permits in anticipation of replacing those restaurants planning on closing?  Although, I suspect that it is still much too early to draw any conclusions either way.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/print-edition/2015/10/23/apocolypse-not-15-and-the-cuts-that-never-came.html

 

 

Good discussion and good information.

 

 

 

 

I'm thinking about how King County can support over 5,000 new restaurants each year, although I fully realize how the "net increase" or "net decrease" in restaurants would be more informative.  However, the number of food service permits may be more of an indication on demonstrating just how haphazardly people open restaurants.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Fjd

[Jim Naseum]

I mean a literal Code of Ethics.

Why must it be written? Why must it be anything other than, "Follow the law?"

For the same reasons doctors don't merely follow the law, they have a specific moral code.

Are you saying you don't understand the difference between laws and morals?

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

[Jeff Matthews]

 

 

 

 

 

Now that we've been schooled

It’s not a political problem; it’s a math problem.

Love some of the write ins at the bottom

The source is just a free market think tank. Would you imagine they say anything else?

Quote

Washington Policy Center (WPC) is an independent, non-profit, think tank that promotes sound public policy based on free-market solutions.

End

Yeah, if you believe in free market policy, you won't like minimum wages.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

 

 

Forget the source.  That's not the point.  The point is that the source directs us to a locale where the experiment has been tried.  It gave us the time-frame as well... before and after April 1, 2015.  From there, further inquiry could be made, and possibly, more informed opinions can be drawn.

 

 

 

 

Isn't the article in the link above from March 12, 2015 where it wouldn't have any data for the period after April 1, 2015?

 

It is subscription, but the article dated October 23, 2015 in the Puget Sound Business Journal (article data can be found other places online) indicates that "Since the wage hike passed on April 1^st, dozens of new restaurants have opened—including some by Douglas himself. The King County section of Seattle has issued 5,227 permits for food service establishments in Seattle so far this year, which means this year will have more openings than last, which had 5,458 permits. This also means 2015 will beat 2013, with 5,415 issued that year."

 

Maybe new permits in anticipation of replacing those restaurants planning on closing?  Although, I suspect that it is still much too early to draw any conclusions either way.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/print-edition/2015/10/23/apocolypse-not-15-and-the-cuts-that-never-came.html

 

 

Good discussion and good information.

 

 

 

 

I'm thinking about how King County can support over 5,000 new restaurants each year, although I fully realize how the "net increase" or "net decrease" in restaurants would be more informative.  However, the number of food service permits may be more of an indication on demonstrating just how haphazardly people open restaurants.

 

 

Either way. It seems the trend would tend to tell.

[Jeff Matthews]

 

 

I mean a literal Code of Ethics.

Why must it be written? Why must it be anything other than, "Follow the law?"

For the same reasons doctors don't merely follow the law, they have a specific moral code.

Are you saying you don't understand the difference between laws and morals?

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

 

 

Believe it or not, those moral codes are often enforced through licensing bodies.  They suspend licenses, disbar, etc. for serious violations.

[oldtimer]

Believe it or not, those moral codes are often enforced through licensing bodies. They suspend licenses, disbar, etc. for serious violations.

 

Extremely public and extremely serious seem to be the limits of that quaint argument.

[Jeff Matthews]

 

Believe it or not, those moral codes are often enforced through licensing bodies. They suspend licenses, disbar, etc. for serious violations.

 

Extremely public and extremely serious seem to be the limits of that quaint argument.

 

 

Not so.  Every month, you can see disciplinary actions taken by the State Bar of Texas, for example.  They are listed in the Bar Journal.  People get sanctioned for all sorts of things.  Anywhere from not communicating with the client, to embezzlement.  Don't get me wrong.  They aren't the gestapo, and you do have to be pretty obviously at fault.  But if you are, you are looking at discipline.  Many attorneys have to check themselves into alcohol and substance abuse programs to keep their licenses ("Many" as in "it's common.").

Edited November 19, 2015 by Jeff Matthews