Another F-20 Build

[CECAA850]

No trouble with the Onkyo, but I picked up that Outlaw 990 preamp and I'm reading through it right now to see why I'm not getting the proper bass signal to the F-20. 

 

See page 29 of your manual and double check settings.

[TasDom]

No trouble with the Onkyo, but I picked up that Outlaw 990 preamp and I'm reading through it right now to see why I'm not getting the proper bass signal to the F-20. 

I wish I could guide you in the right direction Pete but i didn't have it long enough to run subs. I only had it hooked up in stereo mode to the Belle's for a few hours. The guy that had given it to me said he had added it to his system only for bass management.

[CECAA850]

Alice can always call me for a consult if need be.

[Pete H]

 

No trouble with the Onkyo, but I picked up that Outlaw 990 preamp and I'm reading through it right now to see why I'm not getting the proper bass signal to the F-20. 

I wish I could guide you in the right direction Pete but i didn't have it long enough to run subs. I only had it hooked up in stereo mode to the Belle's for a few hours. The guy that had given it to me said he had added it to his system only for bass management.

 

I wish you could too.   it's like any other piece of equipment that you're using without prior experience, I'll figure it out.

 

 

No trouble with the Onkyo, but I picked up that Outlaw 990 preamp and I'm reading through it right now to see why I'm not getting the proper bass signal to the F-20. 

 

See page 29 of your manual and double check settings.

 

Thanks for looking, but I've gone through those settings 4 or 5 times already and I'm still missing something.  I'll probably go through it all one more time after work today but I'm going to hook the Onkyo back up if that doesn't work until I get it figured out because I want to hear the f20 with the 7's.

[CECAA850]

Are you using a plate amp?

[CECAA850]

I just re-read the thread and saw the picture of the Dayton and the Behringer.  Which one are you using?

[Pete H]

I'm running the Dayton, which I've been running for 2 months during the builds in the shop with no issue.

[CECAA850]

I'm running the Dayton, which I've been running for 2 months during the builds in the shop with no issue.

 

I wasn't leaning toward the amp as the issue rather the voltage required to drive the amp from your source.  I would think that the Behringer needed more voltage than the Dayton which is basically their plate amp in a case.  There shouldn't be a mismatch from your Outlaw to the Dayton.  Just thinking of different problem scenarios.

[Pete H]

I agree.  I was running the Dayton on the Sansui with zero issues using the signal from the tape outs to the line levels on the SA230 and the signal was plenty hot enough, no noise and no problem. I'm using the sub out from the outlaw to the line level ins on the Dayton and there shouldn't be any issue at all, but there still is.  I'm going to play after work and hook up the RSW and see if I have the same problem, which will tell me 100% it's something in the settings of the outlaw or not.  While I'm doing that and prior to getting frustrated again, I'm bringing in the Sansui and hooking it up to the F-20 and 7's because I'm going to give that a run this evening, no matter what.  Curiosity is killing me with the F-20 inside and I must know if this is a success or not.

[CECAA850]

I'm using the sub out from the outlaw to the line level ins on the Dayton

 

Wait, what?????

[CECAA850]

I thought you meant high level for a minute.

[Pete H]

No, but sure you had some interesting thoughts in the moment.  I ran it into the LFE also but got the same result.  Sansui will be inside as soon as I'm home and I will get to the bottom of it, but I'm pretty certain it's about the outlaw and something stupid in the settings that I've missed, or isn't really clear in the manual.

[CECAA850]

Here's a response to someone that had the same issue with that exact unit.

 

Go into the setup and manually set the sub to (L+R/LFE) and then set your crossover points to whatever values you like. All of my speakers are pretty competent with bass so I've set them all as "LARGE" in the speaker setup and have crossed over center/RR/LR at 80hz and the mains at 40hz.

Also, make sure the input for your source isn't set to "bypass" as that will effectively silence the sub.
 

Edited April 7, 2016 by CECAA850

[Pete H]

I've done that and tried the "small" & "large" heck I've always crossed the 7's at 40hz because they are solid to there, but 40, 60, trying small and sub set to "yes" going large and doing the L&R+sub, it's freaking weird.  when I run a manual test tone the amp is getting signal, even tried taking the 7's to -6 and the sub to +15 and with the gain on the 230 maxed, it's on, but that's all I can say.  I found the fix!

 

Good news is everything is performing as it did in the shop...................................fuc$ing wonderful!  F20 sounds as I predicted it would in here and in the center........................same way it did in the shop, it's fantastic, which I already knew, but now it's fantastic inside and holding my T.V., center channel, routers, 100 lb. amp and it's honestly better than the RSW15 for music, which is what I expected from the hours of listening in the shop.  RSW is still a good sub, but for clarity in the lower frequencies, there is really no comparison....................no rumble, almost no distortion but the floor is still moving although none of the equipment or the T.V on the top is affected at all and believe me, I'm at concert levels while I'm typing and I'm in the sweet spot while I'm doing it. 

 

Now back to the problem, it has to be that the SA230 just isn't getting a hot enough signal from the Outlaw, so we're (you're now in the boat with me) back to it being a settings issue or an equipment issue and I don't know how to try any other settings short of using the speaker ins and out, but that signal should be weaker, not stronger than the sub out on the outlaw.  This shouldn't be this difficult, it should be A.) do you have a sub.  B.) what signal do you want to send to it.  C.) Do you need that signal boosted and if so, by how much.

 

If I had the room I would just bring the Cornwalls out and run them with the F20 for music with the Sansui and run the 7's for HT, but I need the wall to be about 2' wider and that would be an option.

[CECAA850]

I'd wager that the high level signal via speaker wire would work fine.

 

If you're convinced that the signal is weak form the "sub out" an Art Cleanbox would fix that problem, however you really shouldn't need it with that preamp/sub amp combo.

[CECAA850]

even tried taking the 7's to -6 and the sub to +15 and with the gain on the 230 maxed, it's on, but that's all I can say. I found the fix!

 

Maybe you do need a cleanbox then.  I can send you mine to play with and you can return it to me in Hope if you like.

[derrickdj1]

Here's a response to someone that had the same issue with that exact unit.

 

Go into the setup and manually set the sub to (L+R/LFE) and then set your crossover points to whatever values you like. All of my speakers are pretty competent with bass so I've set them all as "LARGE" in the speaker setup and have crossed over center/RR/LR at 80hz and the mains at 40hz.

Also, make sure the input for your source isn't set to "bypass" as that will effectively silence the sub.

 

 

Setting all the speakers to Large and the XO to 40-80 Hz, does not sound right.  With bass management, speaker set to large don't use the XO or basically no bass management.  Is there some type of quasi bass management scheme?

[CECAA850]

With bass management, speaker set to large don't use the XO or basically no bass management. Is there some type of quasi bass management scheme?

 

Probably sends a full signal to the speakers and everything below the crossover point to the sub.

[derrickdj1]

My understanding of bass management is this senario will send full signal to all speakers set as large.  The LFE will go to the sub and all speakers set to large.  There will be no summing of the bass from the the speakers that will combine with the sub.  There is a setting LFE + Mains or double bass.

 

XO the RF 7's at 50 is a nice place and setting all speakers to small.  This will sum the bass to the sub and LFE only thru the subs.  The subs do more with this setting but, your system is more than capable.  The 50 Hz XO leaves plenty of bass for music and keeps some of the bass out of female vocals.  I use the XO at 50 Hz and think it works well IMHO.  I know everyone's ears are different and many like running full range speakers.

 

 

 

[Pete H]

I need to get it figured out, but I did set the 7's to small and set the crossover as high as 80hz and still experiencing the same problem.  Tomorrow I'm going to hook the Onkyo back up and see what the sub out and setting's that I'm familiar with result in and go from there. 

 

Right now and for the rest of the evening, I'm going to just enjoy the Sansui, 7's and the F-20 because it's absolutely beautiful so I'm in silver lining mode currently or should I say silver lining, Cabo and the silver bullet!  Tomorrow is another day.

 

F-20 is a great sub and I can't state that enough, the clarity in the low bass is phenomenal.