Another F-20 Build

[TasDom]

Which pre out are you using for the sub on the Outlaw? XLR or RCA? Have you tried both of them?

[Pete H]

I haven't tried the XLR as I don't have XLR to dual RCA or XLR to single RCA either and the SA230 doesn't have 1/4" or XLR.  I could try XLR to 1/4 and add an adapter to RCA and try that in the LFE input on the 230, but I just can't imagine that the signal output from the sub outs versus the XLR sub out are going to be substantially different, and if they are, that would be a bit weird since I am sure that the overwhelming majority of users aren't using the xlr out on the sub, but hey, I'm willing to try anything. 

 

I remember on the Onkyo on initial set up I had to select "double bass" to get the signal correct to the sub, but haven't found any reference so far that will do that.  I'm sure I'll try the XLR tomorrow and I appreciate the suggestion, who knows, I'm just so enjoying the rig right now that it's been kicked down a notch or two on the priority list for this evening.

[TasDom]

Don't be insulted but have to ask, are you sure you're not plugged into the sub IN on the Outlaw? (Tasdom ducks)

 

[Pete H]

It would take a lot more than that to insult me.  No, I used both the SW1 and SW2 outputs.  Again, I'm sure it's something stupid in the settings and I can also plug the RSW in, but I'm sure it's a settings issue, or maybe the unit needs a firmware update, but either way, it's really not a big deal now that I have my favorite receiver in the house.  It's amazing how a 40 year old piece of gear can sound so much better than current equipment, so it's all good.

[TasDom]

Gotcha, just making sure plus I want you to be happy since you got the pre pro from me. Hell, I'd want you to be happy regardless of where it came from..

[Pete H]

It's not an issue with you at all, for the price of admission, even it both the sub outputs were bad (sure that's not possible), it would end up in the shop and there's not problem with straight 2 channel, so it's all good, really. 

[Pete H]

Made a little progress.  Blew the unit back to factory settings and downloaded and installed the latest firmware they had and started from scratch and I'm still playing and reading the manual but I can at least use the bypass mode where it's running things direct and I have decent input levels to the sub amp and can leave the 7's set to large with the crossover at 40, but so far I haven't found a way to keep a full bass signal coming out without bypassing the built in crossover.  If I set the 7's to 80 or 100hz then the signal is increased as I raise that crossover point, but that's not what I want.  I'm going to try the XLR output for the sub, but I don't think that will make the difference and this could just be a matter of the unit not functioning the way I want it to function, but still digging.

 

I still have to also mess with the bass boost section of the 230 and run the signal into the LFE instead of the line level to see if that will give me what I'm looking for.  Just seem to have found my answer.

Model 990 Analog Bass Management Matrix.pdf

[CECAA850]

It shouldn't be this hard.

[babadono]

don't we want the chart with the "analog OUTPUT signals". I'm relatively new to this HT stuff, but i knows the difference between an input and an output.

[CECAA850]

don't we want the chart with the "analog OUTPUT signals". I'm relatively new to this HT stuff, but i knows the difference between an input and an output.

 

 

I think that's how the pre handles the analog inputs.

[Pete H]

It shouldn't be this hard.

You're telling me!  It's freaking weird, I tried to bypass this entire bass management with the record outs, both tape and aux and even tried the headphone jack to pump full signal into the 230 and nothing at all from the sub when I do that.  If I play by the rules in the chart, I can get signal, but I don't want to run it in bypass mode, nor do I want to set the 7's at an 80hz crossover point so the work around should have done the trick, but maybe the headphone, tape and aux outputs are on their own board and that board is bad.  Still reading, but there's nothing in the menu's that I can find to "turn on" those outputs that seem dead. 

 

I'm going to figure this out, but I'm still open to suggestions.  A good friend of mine just hung up and said "I'm going to play some guitar for a while and try to step back and rethink this whole thing and I'll call you back" 

 

Am I just being too anal about this because it's not doing things the way I want them to?  The solution on the Onkyo is to set it to double bass and problem solved.  Another Silver Bullet and more reading. 

[CECAA850]

You're a better man than me.  I would have called Outlaw by now.

[Pete H]

 It's on my list of things to do, but I'm not sure how helpful they will want to be on a used unit.  My call is going to be purely based on the tape and aux outs, because the bass management is working per the chart after the firmware update, just not how I freaking want it to.

 

I decided on the SA230 for one main reason and that was to give me the ability to "EASILY" dial in the sub on the fly for frequency, phase and gain because with music, I dial in the sub on a constant basis based on my source material and general listening level and if this doesn't get worked out the way I want it to, I will simply buy a different processor that allows that to happen, it's that important to me and my listening.  I still love my RSW's, but walking over and screwing with the controls is a PITA and that was one of many driving forces with this build so I have achieved most of the goals, sounds fantastic, holds my stuff, looks good, the 7's love the Emotiva for sure, but this ***** is going to function my way, damn it!  LMAO

 

I will say that this experience has opening my eyes regarding bass management and will also have a direct affect on my adventure going active and what I mean by that is although I'm very comfortable with computers and programs, when it comes to dialing in my tunes based on my particular mood and wants, I want simple dials, period because all the other crap really takes away from the experience by delaying the change and causing you to completely get out of the listening mode that you're mind is in so my "active crossover rig" will absolutely have knobs.

 

It's all about the music for me because anyone can take out the plastic and purchase a surround set up that sounds great, it's at least 75% effects and processing and having a decent budget will beat the average movie theater. 

 

Damn, that was like therapy!  I guarantee, there won't be a movie screen in Hope unless it's to show a concert video.  Am I still in the audio section of the forum? 

Edited April 9, 2016 by Pete H

[rockhound]

SWEET!

[derrickdj1]

Running the speakers as large means that setting the XO to 40, 50,80 or 100 is a non-issue.  The speakers are set to play full range and the sub will not be used.  The way around this is to use the double bass or sub + mains option or something similar.  These setting are plagued by boomy bass, phase, cancellation and timing issues.

 

The RF 7's have a -3 db point in the low thirties: set the XO 15 Hz higher than the -3 db point and you will be around 45 Hz.  Most recorded music filter out bass under 40 Hz unless you like pipe organ concert music and a few other instruments.  The Question is a little easier if you ask yourself do I want to take advantage of a bass managed system or wing it and try to correct all of the possible above mentioned problems yourself.

 

I run the 7's as small with the Pioneer avr XO at 50 Hz, which is the lowest XO available on Pioneer.  I run the 7's as large when using the tube amp and with music, the bass in the two system is darn close so, I know I am not missing anything running the speakers set to small.  If anything, I am missing some bass running them as large.  The subs can do anything that may be there below 40 Hz better than full range RF 7's!

Edited April 9, 2016 by derrickdj1