davis419b Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 What was the best 15" woofer used in the Khorns ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricktate Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 The one that belongs in it....K-33 Or Bob Crites cast frame one. I use his in mine. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davis419b Posted January 1, 2016 Author Share Posted January 1, 2016 What was the best 15" woofer used in the Khorns ? The one that belongs in it....K-33 Or Bob Crites cast frame one. I use his in mine. Rick Sorry I meant to say Klipsch woofer K-33-?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 K-43 works as well but much depends on what you want from your system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davis419b Posted January 1, 2016 Author Share Posted January 1, 2016 (edited) K-43 works as well but much depends on what you want from your system. I am not replacing any woofers I am just looking for info. I have 64 Khorns with K-33-J woofers in them. I thought that I had read somewhere that they were the best that Klipsch had used so I was just trying to confirm that. Thanks for the replies. Edited January 1, 2016 by davis419b 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twistedcrankcammer Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 NO! It is not the K-33E, nor is it the Crites Woofer, not even close! I used to own well over 30 Klipsch 15" woofers, and my brother in law who also owns Klipschorns and I spent a day swapping out woofer and playing the bass bin only,, and playing the whole speaker to cross reference all the woofers I had. The woofers I had on hand to try out were as follows: K-33E round magnet, K-33E square magnet, Crites cast frame woofer, K-43E woofer, Klipsch K-44E woofer, K-46E woofer, and the Electro Voice EV 15W-K. All of the above speakers are OEM 15 inch drivers for Klipsch Horn loaded products except for Bob Crites driver. The K-43E is used in Pro LaScalas and MWM bins and is rated at 200 watts RMS. The K-44E is used in later production TSCM Pro Klipschorn bins and is rated at 250 Watts RMS. The K-46E woofer came in the KP-600 Low Frequency horn and is rated at 300 Watts RMS. The clear winner by an blatently obvious margin was my Electro Voice EV 15W-K. It should be noted that my Electro Voice EV 15W-Ks are the earlier 1950s versions with the Huge Alnico magnets. I have heard that these Alnico versions sound better than the ones made in the 1960s with the ceramic magnet and bow tie in polished aluminum on the cast aluminum cover over that magnet, but I cannot confirm this as I have never had the chance to do an A/B comparison. I have also been told that the Stevens True Sonic Woofer sounds even better than my Electro Voices, but the only ones I have ever actually seen in person are in the Museum and also the basement of the museum in Hope. There is also some old model train track in that basement as well, kind of a tribute to Paul there. So I have never actually heard let alone had a chance to do a comparison with a Stevens woofer. These were my findings, and my brother in laws as well, as we both agree that it was an obvious difference in both Bass increase at lower listening levels and quality/clearness of the sound. So, that's my story and I'm stickin to it! ... Roger 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twistedcrankcammer Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 K-43 works as well but much depends on what you want from your system. I am not replacing any woofers I am just looking for info. I have 65 Khorns with K-33-J woofers in them. I thought that I had read somewhere that they were the best that Klipsch had used so I was just trying to confirm that. Thanks for the replies. I have not listened to the K-33-Js, but it would not surprise me as at one time, Jensen made very fine speakers, but that was WAAAAAY before the trash they turned out in the late 70's, early 80's for car audio. I would love to get together at some point and do an A/B with your Jensens, now we just need to find some Stevens True Sonics to add to the mess! Roger 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 Roger, did Klipsch use the K-43 from the factory in the TSCM K-horns ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mungkiman Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 I like the Stephens Trusonic P103LX2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 K-43 works as well but much depends on what you want from your system. I am not replacing any woofers I am just looking for info. I have 65 Khorns with K-33-J woofers in them. I thought that I had read somewhere that they were the best that Klipsch had used so I was just trying to confirm that. Thanks for the replies. I have not listened to the K-33-Js, but it would not surprise me as at one time, Jensen made very fine speakers, but that was WAAAAAY before the trash they turned out in the late 70's, early 80's for car audio. I would love to get together at some point and do an A/B with your Jensens, now we just need to find some Stevens True Sonics to add to the mess! Roger The Advent Maestro was a decent sounding 3 way made by Jensen, other than that i agree with you. Problem was the cheapie foam surrounds fell apart like usual. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twistedcrankcammer Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 Roger, did Klipsch use the K-43 from the factory in the TSCM K-horns ? No, they never did! Early TSCMs have 100 watt per channel square magnet K-33-Es in them, and later, they developed the 250 watt K-44-E for the TSCM. I am pretty sure that Roy may very well have put one in the lab to try out? but maybe not. I will go on record as stating that no K-horn or variant there of was sold that way though. I also own the number #1 and number #2 boxes of TSCMs ever produced Roger 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twistedcrankcammer Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 I like the Stephens Trusonic P103LX2 Do you have one that we could compare too? Roger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 (edited) Frame 22 of https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/158698-the-klipschorn-motorboard/page-2 has T-S for the 15WK. My guess is that they are very rare on the market. The EVM-15L is close except for the Rvc. Still, it is only EV 15 inch which EV lists as for use in horn bass units, to my knowledge. They are probably easier to find on the used market. It seems to me that PWK could have his suppliers make up a driver having the same specifications as the 15WK or the 15L. I don't know why he did not. There is a theory that drivers with a Qes of about 0.3 is best for ported bass units like the CW and maybe the Fs works better for the CW. Therefore perhaps he wanted to use it in the K-Horn rather than pay for a small run of something like the WK. That is just speculation on my part. Another issue is that PWK was apparently always looking for a lower resonance for the K-Horn system to increase the amount of low bass going into the throat of the horn. I believe this is why he enlarged the back chamber as much as possible and in one case doped the surround to be more floppy. The K-33s have a lower resonance than the EV units. There is another consideration. Is a strong motor system always better? Maybe not. It leads to damping of resonances. PWK was playing with the resonance caused by the back chamber and the front chamber to boost up response at the low end (back chamber) and the high end (front chamber) . A strong motor system will damp down those resonances. WMcD . Edited January 1, 2016 by WMcD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 (edited) Re: 3.4 for WK, 5.2 for 15L (ohms) Qes: 0.28 for WK, 0.23 for 15L Vas: 0.242 for WK, 0.245 for 15L (cubic meters) Fs: 42.6 for WK, 43 for 15L (Hertz) Moving mass comes into consideration sometimes and we don't have a spec for that. But we see that Fs and Vas are the same for the drivers. Therefore, moving mass must be the same. The Qes of the 15L is about 20 percent lower than the WK. This shows a stronger motor system. But maybe, as mentioned above, is not always good. WMcD Edited January 1, 2016 by WMcD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twistedcrankcammer Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 (edited) Re: 3.4 for WK, 5.2 for 15L (ohms) Qes: 0.28 for WK, 0.23 for 15L Vas: 0.242 for WK, 0.245 for 15L (cubic meters) Fs: 42.6 for WK, 43 for 15L (Hertz) Moving mass comes into consideration sometimes and we don't have a spec for that. But we see that Fs and Vas are the same for the drivers. Therefore, moving mass must be the same. The Qes of the 15L is about 20 percent lower than the WK. This shows a stronger motor system. But maybe, as mentioned above, is not always good. WMcD My question to you would be this; What EV 15W-K specs do you have that you are looking at and comparing, as if you don't know it is totally a guess. We need to remember that the early, much rarer EV 15W-K has an Alnico magnet structure. Not only is Alnico a much stronger magnet by weight than Ceramic Magnets, but the early Alnico magnets are HUGE, and far out weigh the later ceramic magnets. The speaker industry switched to ceramic as rare earth magnet material became more scarce and to pricey to use, not because Ceramic was stronger or better, but because it was cheaper. I cannot begin to believe that the strength of these two magnets is anywhere close to the same figures for both units. I wish they made a Neodymium 15 inch driver with this much magnet weight, it would answer a lot I think. Roger Edited January 1, 2016 by twistedcrankcammer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 (edited) The clear winner by an blatently obvious margin was my Electro Voice EV 15W-K. It should be noted that my Electro Voice EV 15W-Ks are the earlier 1950s versions with the Huge Alnico magnets. I totally agree! I've never heard any woofer that had the superb mid-range clarity and extension, or the remarkable bass fullness, depth, and precision of the 15 WK. It made all the Heritage line of the time sound incredible. Organ bass reproduction on the K-horn had to be heard to be believe it. Unfortunately, this wonderful but brief period of greatness ended with the new ceramic-magnet 15 WK of around 1960. One caution, though: the crossovers might have to be re-jiggered to insert an E-V 15 WK into a Klipsch 3-way system. I tried it once, found it unbalanced, and didn't have the knowledge to make the needed x-over changes. Oh, to be able to recover that sound. Edited January 1, 2016 by LarryC 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twistedcrankcammer Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 The clear winner by an blatently obvious margin was my Electro Voice EV 15W-K. It should be noted that my Electro Voice EV 15W-Ks are the earlier 1950s versions with the Huge Alnico magnets. I totally agree! I've never heard any woofer that had the superb mid-range clarity and extension, or the remarkable bass fullness, depth, and precision of the 15 WK. It made all the Heritage line of the time sound incredible. Organ bass reproduction on the K-horn had to be heard to be believe it. Unfortunately, this wonderful but brief period of greatness ended with the new ceramic-magnet 15 WK of around 1960. One caution, though: the crossovers might have to be re-jiggered to insert an E-V 15 WK into a Klipsch 3-way system. I tried it once, found it unbalanced, and didn't have the knowledge to make the needed x-over changes. Oh, to be able to recover that sound. Larry, Did you consult Bob Crites or one of the other cross over gurus about this? Even better would to be to use your tube setup on the highs and quire Roy as to horn time delays for the bass bin and at least bi-amp if not tri amp and add delay into the top end. Just thinking out loud here, but wondering of your thoughts on this? Roger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 Roger, I've quoted from the specs in the link which was part of my post. WMcD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 (edited) FWIW here are the 15M specs. You seem to have a strong opinion regarding the effect of the magnet material. But I can only look at the specifications. WMcD Edited January 2, 2016 by WMcD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twistedcrankcammer Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 FWIW here are the 15M specs. You seem to have a strong opinion regarding the effect of the magnet material. But I can only look at the specifications. WMcD Excellent Link! Thank you! By the 1955 date on the paper, I would assume these are Alnico specifications, and yes, I am opinionated as to Magnet material. A stronger magnet with the same distance tolerances is going to have a stronger magnetic field that we are introducing our coil into, all else being equal. A stronger magnetic field has the potential for a more efficient speaker such as the 100 dB for the EV vs:: the 96 dB efficiency listed for the Eminence driver. As we know, greater efficiency is the path to less distortion, plus as I stated in an earlier post; all else being equal, that EV is going to produce more Bass at lower listening levels, just like the K-33E does over the K-43E woofer. Roger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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