Bass lack in RF7 spectrum

[CECAA850]

That's how BFM rates his subs (in room).  I don't care for that either.

Edited June 13, 2016 by CECAA850

[Deang]

"YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!"

[Deang]

I don't mind it, not really - but the number should be on the modest side - since everyone pulls their speakers out a bit to improve imaging. Klipsch must be using 1/8 space (corner/ all boundaries) - which I think would be +9dB. All I know is that I had mine in corners, and I sure as hell wasn't getting 32-35Hz.

[pzannucci]

"YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!"

When you reference the mid to highs, the speaker will sound top loaded.  Likely the Mac being tubed has the frequency response fluctuating with the impedance also.  If the top end was tapered down a bit and the speaker was broken in, things would probably change quite a bit.  Break in occurs, top end tailing off slightly instead of raising isn't going to happen without tweaks. 

 

Face it that most speakers today rely on people having electronics in a receiver to balance and flatten the sound and subwoofers to fill in the bottom.  This all makes things cheaper and better for marketing / bottom line.  That all works if you aren't looking for 2 channel.  When doing 2 channel, start digging deep in your pockets if you are going to use an amp and just two speakers.

[Deang]

+1

[Fish]

I will only add that the rf7 is my favorite Klipsch speaker for pure beauty of sound and loudness. They are incredible in their presentation. I also would never have used them without one, and loved the dual rsw15's I used. I also would agree that the preamp/amp is of critical import, even a good one will not always sound good on 7's. Denon for example 38xx models were very dry and boring, Onkyo cold/sterile, even the great Harman Kardon was not so great. Rotel and Parasound were a few that really made the 7's pound and roar.

 

I now have klf's and although not as great as 7's/rsw15 with top quality gear, they are better with a wide variety of front end and modest subs.

[robert_kc]

astrodany,

 

How large is the listening room?

 

How loud do you like to listen?

 

What is your goal?   Reproduce nature sounding classical music, big band music, or jazz?   Reproduce the sound of a cannon in your room, or buffalo stampede?  Place a rock band in your living room playing loud enough to cause hearing damage?

                                   

When reproducing classical music in an average size room, my RF-7 II speakers deliver ample bass when driven by a tube amp with as little as 10 wpc … IMO.   When I use the crossover built into my Oppo player to off-load bass from the main amp and RF-7s to a Klipsch R-115SW subwoofer, the deep bass is accentuated to the point where it can be obnoxious for some recordings (particularly for LFE in movies) if I don’t “dial it back” via my Oppo player’s “trim level” setting for the subwoofer.

 

IME if you drive the RF-7 II with a tube amp with at least 10 wpc – in an average size room -  equipped with tone controls so that you can tailor the sound - you should realize excellent sound quality with great dynamics and ample bass for most music.   As others have pointed out, if you heard RF-7 IIs delivering weak bass, there was undoubtedly something wrong with the setup.   If you want to deliver the lowest pedal notes of a pipe organ, or the full impact of a bass drum, or if you’re a “bass fanatic” - i.e., you like LFE or unnaturally accentuated bass - then you can off-load bass to the biggest subwoofer possible, and start “rattling the windows” and “annoying the neighbors” …

 

That's my 2.5 cents, after living with RF-7 IIs for several years. 

 

P.S.  I recently added subwoofers to three of my systems (including the system with RF-7s), so I'm not saying that subwoofers don't have value.

Edited June 14, 2016 by robert_kc

[derrickdj1]

Here is the FR of RF 7's set to large and no subs in my room.  They are not in corners and the room is 4300 cu ft.+.  They clearly go well past 70 Hz.  In a 4300 cu ft. space there is very little in any room gain before 11 or 12 Hz.

[derrickdj1]

The RF 7 and 7 II's are full range speakers as manufactured by Klipsch.  They are also part of a home theater package.  They were made to use with or without a subwoofer depending on the application.

[astrodany]

@robert_kc: the listening room is about 7 x 5 meters and I listen to classical music.

 

I am becoming convinced (reading your posts) that something in the setup was not right and that RF7 are able to play bass frequencies even if without sub.

 

Danilo

[Deang]

"They clearly go well past 70 Hz ..."

Of course they do. I said the ports take over at 70, not that the speaker started dropping in output at 70.

Where did you have your microphone placed - I've never seen any RF-7 plot look like that, and I've seen quite a few - including the anechoic one from Klipsch.

[pzannucci]

Here is the FR of RF 7's set to large and no subs in my room.  They are not in corners and the room is 4300 cu ft.+.  They clearly go well past 70 Hz.  In a 4300 cu ft. space there is very little in any room gain before 11 or 12 Hz.

The issue is not how low the RF 7s  can go but how the mid and bass frequencies reference to the highs.

 

A typical speaker will have the highs slowly trailing off by a few db after about 3 or 4k.  This deviation from flat will get even larger as you move off axis. 

 

If you look at the plots, even at 30degrees off the RF7 has substantial energy in the area where the ear is most sensitive, especially in reference to the mids.

 

If you add that together with the bass impedance requiring a fair amount of current and the high impedance in that same hot range (matters more with tubes), some folks would definitely say the RF7 is hot in the highs and would shy away.  Others love that sound.  

 

So this isn't really about lack of bass.  Big heavy carpet, couches, and wall treatments and those highs become detail.

[astrodany]

Today I've heard the RF7 in another show room ( about 6 x 7 meters ) with the loudspeakers at about 2 meters from back and side.

Power amps: two McIntosh mono ( 300W ).

 

The RF7 sound seems to me balanced with solo piano but unbalanced (toward high frequencies) with orchestral music.

 

 

Bye, Danilo

[CECAA850]

Any room treatments on the walls, ceiling or floors?

[robert_kc]

Yes, I agree about the tendency of RF-7 II to be “bright” or “hot in the highs”, which is why I mentioned “tone controls so that you can tailor the sound” in my post above. 

 

Or, in the case of my SEP (single-ended pentode) power amp which has no tone controls, I was able to voice the amp via tube selection and achieve excellent sound.  Here’s the recipe that works for my ears with the RF-7 II:

 

• Inspire “Fire Bottle” SE Stereo Tube Amplifier HO hand built by Dennis Had.   (The amp was originally equipped with KT88, 5U4, and 6CG7, however this tube complement sounded too bright.)   After extensive tube rolling to achieve optimal sound with my RF-7 II, the amp is currently equipped with GT6L6 GE performance rating 5 (6L6GC), 5AR4, Amperex (Holland) 6DJ8.  
• In order to realize adequate gain I adjusted my Oppo universal player’s “trim levels” for the l/r speakers to their max value (i.e., +10dB vs. 0dB).   (I connect the Inspire power amp directly to the Oppo – i.e., no preamp.  I use the Oppo’s volume control.) 

 

The result is excellent sound quality, excellent tonal balance, not overly bright, and no harshness.   And I realize ample dynamics, bass, and volume level for my room and tastes for most music.  I can use the Oppo’s crossover to engage my R-115SW if I want more powerful bass (e.g., for pipe organ, or really large scale orchestral music that has extreme dynamics).  I could gladly live with this system as my only system.  My only reservation is that the RF-7 isn’t the nicest looking speaker (e.g., compared with my Palladium), but mine is installed in my basement so appearance is not important in this case.  

 

IMHO the arrangement described above represents an excellent value in hi-fi.  I’d nominate this configuration as one of the best values available for a full range 2 channel hi-fi system for less than $5k that is based on new equipment (i.e., not used equipment, which can always be bought cheaper) and can play any digital audio format plus Blu-ray video:

 

• Oppo BDP-105 (Oppo is expected to replace this unit with a newer UHD compatible model by late 2016)  $1,300
• Inspire “Fire Bottle” SE Stereo Tube Amplifier HO equipped with GT6L6 GE (performance rating 5), 5AR4, Amperex (Holland) 6DJ8  $1,500  (eBay seller: radioman731)
• Klipsch RF-7 II (typically available at significant discount from an authorized on-line dealer)

 

If the budget is stretched to $6k - $7k, and you want more powerful bass, then add a subwoofer of choice, employing the Oppo’s built-in crossover function.

 

I believe that this would be a practicable (and versatile) system for many people.  Size is relative, but compared with significantly wider speakers (e.g. Jubilee or La Scala), or speakers requiring corner placement (Klipschorn), the RF-7 II’s will fit in many more listening rooms (including mine).

 

I probably went a little off-topic, but I wanted to share my opinion that the RF-7 II is capable of great sound when paired with the right amp.

[astrodany]

Any room treatments on the walls, ceiling or floors?

No, but a lot of loudspeakers around.

 

Danilo

[CECAA850]

 

Any room treatments on the walls, ceiling or floors?

No, but a lot of loudspeakers around.

 

Danilo

 

 

 

Not a good place to listen then.  Reflections will brighten up the top end.

[Deang]

Well, there is that crossover thing.

[CECAA850]

Well, there is that crossover thing.

 

 

Good point.  He was listening to them in a store so I assumed II's.

[TechnoT]

Hello

 

Remove the two ports from the rear of the speaker (RF7-iii) and reposition the internal baffling foam so that there is a clear path between the rear of the woofer driver and the port. Reinstall port in the rear. Fixed. 

 

This took me two years to figure out. Not sure if it is a design fault or a quality control issue but my bass response is far better without the form between the driver and port exit. 

 

Best of luck. 

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by TechnoT