my Cornwall observations & how to get more?

[kjohnsonhp]

How can I improve the sound of my Cornwalls for music? My guess is that I need a better amp/pre-amp to start. I'm pretty happy when I turn the volume up just a little but any move above 9 o'clock is too harsh and loud...maybe the efficiency never requires more and I'm listening pretty loud already...can't tell for sure but I have a tendancy to want just a little more volume for those show-off sonic blasts.

Here's what I have an what I observe along with some questions:

Current setup for 2-channel sound:

* room: 15' wide, 20' long (ceiling start to slant with roof lines on sides at 35" off floor).

* speakers: 1977 Cornwalls

* receiver: replaced 60watt Hitachi integrated amp with Denon AVR-2000 (~100watt/channel in bypass mode)

* Sony CDP-207esD CD

* Denon DP-790 turntable w/Grado Red

* Beogram 3000 w/Sure (will move on turntable to another room).

Observations:

* Hitachi has a power meter and the loud passages of music sound unpleasantly loud when the power meter bounces above the .7 to 1.5 watts point. Below 1 watt peak it sounds good. Turning the volume above 3 (out of 10) and 2watts is unpleasant--especially female vocals, trumpets and similar sounds

* the Denon improves the sound but similar to the Hitachi it sound unpleasant with more power...4/40 on the volume knob is as high as I can turn it before it's too loud/distorted.

I wish I had a sound pressure meter. I perceive that even at 4 on the Denon I'm putting out a lot of sound. My listening position is a little over 2 meters.

QUESTIONS:

1. Will the Denon AVR-3802 provide similar 2-channel sound to my current Denon? I know it has more current surround effects but it may not improve my 2-channel situation much.

2. How much should I budget for a pre-amp/amp if that is the way to get much better sound compared to the Denon receiver? $4k? How about a $450 used CArver m1.5 with a $200 used pre-amp for just 2-channel?

3. For 2-channel should I explore tubes?

4. What is an enjoyable listening volume? 90db? or do you really like to listen at 105db?

5. I listened to the Definitive Technology BP2000TL's with a high-end Denon receiver in 2-channel today for comparison. They were much different sounding...not nearly as bright as the RF7's. The Corns seemed to be in the middle. The integrated subs made more rumble than I liked so I don't think I need a sub for 2-channel. I'm tryiing to determine if the Corns are the best fit for me which is why I've tried to compare them.

At the moment I'm just keeping the volume turned down and I'm happy...it's probably pretty loud anyway. I'm trying to determine which amp to upgrade to.

[kjohnsonhp]

I was originally thinking of buying just a Denon 3802 for 2-channel and HT but now I'm wondering if I really should get the 2-channel right first with a seperate amp & pre-amp for 2-channel.

My original plan was to use the denon 3802 for 2-channel and then buy 2-pair of Heresy to add to my Cornwalls to make the move to HT. A sub would be added then the final step would be to replace my 25" CRT TV w/a 65" Mitsubishi.

I watch about 4 movies/month but I listen to music every day. With my denon AVR-2000 I can power the HT while I get the 2-channel running and build the funds to upgrade beyond 2-ch to a better HT

[jazman]

kjohnsonhp,

Your situation (aka problem) description seems to be a classic case of "SS Harshness". Calling ...mobile homeless?

Klipsch out.

[Klipschguy]

Firstly, try different recordings - some recordings are poorly mixed and sound harsh. Secondly, if high levels are still harsh, walk into the next room (with the volume up) to hear if the music is still harsh - if it's not, it may be your ears distorting. Also, amplification may make a difference - many here like tubes with their horns. Also note that horns characteristically have a lot of dynamic range (meaning louder passages are loud) compared to more conventional designs. Another possibility is horns are not your bag. As you know, people all have preferences.

What were you listening to before the Cornwalls???????

BTW, I have '77 Cornwalls and I would say they have VERY low distortion, even at rock concert levels. There could be something wrong with the speakers themselves.

Andy

[No Disc]

kjohnsonhp

Without getting into specifics I would suggest you find a reputable tube amp dealer in your area and arrange a home trial with a tube amp and try it with your cornwalls.

I started with a high end AV receiver too, but now I keep my 2 channel setup and home theater setup SEPARATE. Replacing my Nakamichi AV receiver with a low cost integrated tube made a WORLD of difference with my Klipsch.

I even tried some high quality Solid State amplification, but it still sounded "harsh" and tiresome to listen to. Tubes made the music WARM and pleasant to listen to. After I heard the difference it was a no brainier to switch.

Try it and listen for yourself.

- tb

[mobile homeless]

Cornwalls CAN sound harsh with mediocre electronics, especially with bad amplification, namely AV receivers, which are notoriously bad for two channel. Hell, I didnt even like Klipsch speakers really until I heard them with good tubes! Again, my apologies to the SS crowd but this was my experience with horns and solid state, something that others like. Still, you have to have some damn good solid state to make horns sing.

But I wouldnt be honest if I didnt also say that Klipsch Heritage can sound damn right aggressive with bad sources, including source MATERIAL. Poor recordings or recordings that put more emphasis on the upper midrange into the harsh areas of poor treble reproduction can make your loving horn top end cause pain. Let's be honest here. Klipsch Heritage do not like bad recordings, but when mated to more mediocre solid state and average digitalitis, you can get HORROR.

A good source with quality tube gear, whether vintage or my favorite SET amplification, can really help the Cornwall cause. Some also like to talk of adding rope caulk et al to dampen the horns... I dont even think this is at all necessary when you get the front end and amplification buttoned up.

So how far do you want to go? As is, your speakers are WAY outclassing the rest of your system. Are you ready? heh....

kh

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Phono Linn Sondek LP-12 Valhalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point

CD Player Rega Planet

Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified

Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks

Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect

Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover

Links system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s>

[kjohnsonhp]

Prior to the Cornwalls here is what I had exposure to:

1985 new Cornwalls & Carver M1.5 amp --memories were very impressive but the equipment was owned by a housemate so I didn't get too much exposure--except through the floor/vents and select listening opportunities. I heard Cornwalls at Tweeter that year playing 1812 Ovature w/canons and was really impressed.

Since then I've been listening to low volumes--when single I lived in an apartment then once I was in a house I got kids and a wife that like the sound low.

My old stereo was the Hitachi 60watt integrated amp replaced by the Denon AVR-2000 A/V receiver and Hitachi 3-way speakers (about the size of a Heresy) and sold for about $500 in 1985. See photo for my equipment (old & new).

I've mostly listened to the car stereo: Infinity Gold package in Durango and Mach Stereo in Mustang...nothing special.

I was a college radio DJ and went to a lot of club concerts--maybe I've blasted my hearing

The Corns sound great watching Star Wars Ep.1--especially Pod Racer scene and sword fights but music is more harsh. Here are examples (all CDs):

* Handel's Water Music - trumpets are harsh horns sound great.

* other loud classic passages all sound too loud--turn up the volume on the soft passages and deeper woodwinds and turn down during the loudest passages--dynamic range.

* Annie Lennox - No More I Love Yous - vocals harsh

* Hendrix - Red House - sounds better but a little harsh on guitar as volume increases

* Male operetic soprano vocals sound fine

* Madonna- Boardeline and other dance tracks sound great

* Sarah McLachlan - Angel - vocals a little harsh on high levels

* Everything but the Girl - Flipside - great base and dance sound

Lower volumes make the sound better. Most songs only sound harsh in "loud" passages. I admit my Hitachi isn't a great int. amp but I was hoping for more from my Denon w/Corns

The highs are harsh--sound too loud--like a stereo cranked too high. The lower sounds are great.

I'm not sure if I need a tube amp, ALK crossovers, just a seperate SS amp/pre-amp, or maybe I'm just not a horn guy. I certainly liked the $14K KEF speakers playing "The Wall" powered buy $5k+ of Krell electronics I heard recently but that is not my price range. The DefTech BP2000TL weren't harsh until really cranked but kinda muffled compared to my Cornwalls. All the speakers at places like circuit city sound harsh at the volume the kid reps try to crank them to. I always have to back the volume off a tad.

[kjohnsonhp]

Oh by the way...my hearing isn't shot because my recent trip to the Dallas Symphony moved the senses.

I really would like to sit back and let classical music on my stereo drive my emotions...both the soft sounds of strings and the arm swinging punch of a full orchestra blasting. I don't think I'm there yet.

My primary interest has been rock but my interest in hifi has been driven by a desire to hear improved classical reproduction.

[kjohnsonhp]

I guess I kinda expected that once I got nice speakers I'd be sent down the audiophile path of improving the supply chain: tube amp then Linn turntable w/moon rock needle, etc.

I would like to have a record player system that makes me say I like it better than CDs since I have 3,000 lps. Of course not all are mint master recordings. My Dad's 1959 45's of San Antonio rock like The Traits might be better on an old Sound Design I'm not sure if my 70's power pop, new wave, punk, post punk, college alt. rock stuff would sound any better.

When you are on the computer what stereo do you listen to? I have my desk against the rear wall and corner preventing me from putting a full sized heritage speaker in the rear. This placement puts me under the rear speaker if I finish the surround or facing backwards and to the righ when listening to 2-speaker stero. I've been using BA-60's on my desk connected to a receiver instead of a computer speaker system like promedia. For higher volumes I just let the Cornwalls bounce off the back wall.

[mobile homeless]

I have a ton of indie racket as well, from 60 garage to underground mess now.

Going for a great two channel system to actually listen to music instead of the amusement park ride of HT sound where one puts on The Matrix over and over to feel the room shake is where it turns for me. And with 3000 lps, a number that not many even aspire to, is sure reason to get some quality gear, something with some real grit and life.

There is nothing better than vinyl, tubes, and horns. There is something about the sound that is so "there" it's hard to describe, especially with great tube amps, which dont always have to cost an arm and a leg.

As for computer listening, since I am on the dreaded Dell all too often, I either listen to my main system via Linn/Rega Planet/Cary/2A3 Monoblocks/Cornwalls or my vintage EICO HF-81 via whatever source I happen to be running, this into either ProAc Mini Towers or Monitor speakers. I dont particularly like my computer as a source but I do occasionally run it. It is the least appealing, even coming in second to a portable digital unit.

kh

------------------

Phono Linn Sondek LP-12 Valhalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point

CD Player Rega Planet

Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified

Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks

Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect

Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover

Links system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s>

[kjohnsonhp]

OK, I think it's time to explore the tube amps. It's been 10 years since I was an electrical engineer so I think I just want someone to recommend something that I can buy, connect and listen. I reviewed an old crossover design I did in the 80's for my car stereo and I now can't even remember what all the Z's in the equation mean.

I'll check for Dallas stores that are analog oriented.

Recommendations welcome.

[mobile homeless]

I believe there are more tube amp recommendations in the archives of this forum then anywhere else, besides the Tube Asylum and other various specialty boards.

It sounds like you dont want to mess with vintage amps. Am I correct?

In the modern camp, there are some good used options. How much do you want to spend?

kh

[kjohnsonhp]

I want my music listening system to be enjoyable and impressive to my ears. Since I've never owned audiophile equipment I was hoping that wouldn't require more than $1,000 in electronics plus my Cornwalls. If I need to spend more then I will. I'm turning 40 years old and I've always wanted a "good stereo". I was also planning to add pieces over time (upgrade the record player, CD player, add a surround processor, amps and speakers for HT, etc.). I've got plenty of software in both vinyl and CD formats.

Can I start with just the amp/pre-amp or do I need to buy a Rega Planet CD player and $1,000 record playing system? My current sources are Sony 207esD CD and Denon DP-790 w/Grado Red (or Beogram 3000 w/Sure). I've got lps and CDs so I'd like one format to sound great.

I'd like to simply go buy the equipment, plug it in and listen to it. I could buy vintage and pay to have it restored but I don't want to use a sodering iron again unless it's simple task nor do I want to go through a trial and error process of testing different parts on the amp just to get my intial happinesss--unless it's a quick process. I could tweak the system to get to the next level over time but I want to get an initial level of satisfaction soon.

I live in Flower Mound, TX near the airport. I don't know if there are retailers for tube equipment in my area but the D/FW area usually has everything if you know where to look.

I have a friend in Portland that restores antique tube radios but he's not a hifi guy although he's restored a few old tube amps from the trash and sold them on ebay for $800. I'm not sure if his skills would be a fit for a restoration of vintage equipment he does sell his services for radio repair.

[eq_shadimar]

If you want to hear what Cornwalls and tubes sound like let me know. I would be more than happy to let you listen to my system some eveing. I can also switch back to SS and Cornwalls fairly quickly in case you want to determine if there is something else in your system that you would like to test.

Laters,

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...wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world...

My Home Theater Page

[Jim Cornell]

I owned 2 pair of cornwalls

One pair was very harsh, the other was just fine!

The type B-3 in your set might need an upgrade, my buddy that has my 2 pair might get ahold of you, on how to improve this, he doesnt post very often!

Regards Jim

[Klipschguy]

There is a possibility someone put new diaphragms in your tweeters which are the wrong impedance (T-35 had 16 and 8 Ohm versions). An impedance mismatch could make for a screaming pair of tweeters.

Cornwall's should sound somewhat midrange foward, well rounded in the bass, and almost mellow in the highs. The sound should also be very clear and undistorted. The tweeter should sound subjectively about the same or quieter than the squawker when you alternate from driver to driver with a close ear.

Are your Cornwalls stock? Are you sure nobody has modified them? Do the back screws look dinged up like someone has had the backs off a bunch of times?

Andy

[kjohnsonhp]

See attached photo of inside. I wanted to check and here is what I saw: K-77 Tweeters, K-55-V Squawkers.

[kjohnsonhp]

Here is a photo of the back. The screws looked like they were either new or never turned. The heads pressed against the wood with impressions like they were only inserted once...now they could be replacement screws.

While we are talking about my Corns let me know if there is any fix to the penny-sized black circles on part of my tops...the black is like a water stain in the grain...you can't feel it. If not for those circles the vaneers is in great shape.

[mobile homeless]

Nice Cornwalls! 1976 - Type B Crossover. Alnico tweet and mid. Great shape.

Shitty speaker wire! Tom Brennan certified!!!

Get some good gear feeding into those beasts with some good tunes combined with a good room and you have some GREAT sound coming (unless someone did something that we dont know about).

kh

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 09-04-2002 at 06:12 PM

[Randy Bey]

Hey, that 76 speaker wire is exactly what's in my khorns!

I have yet to change it out, although it's been on my list of things to do.

kjohnsonhp should be offered the red pill or the blue pill.

Does he take the blue pill and go back to his bruiser SS amps that become uncomfortably loud?

Does he want to see just how far down the rabbit hole goes?

hmmm. Looks like the red pill to me.

Try this:

start with the amp/speaker stuff. Get nice tubes, preferrably SET, but good alternative abound. Heck, even a Zen amp at $500 will sound like you've swallowed the red pill.

Then upgrade the source. I'd start with the digital source, but that's just me. Sure, get a Rega Planet for $400 used, and see where you are sonically then. I don't think a B&O 3000 is a bad TT, so you can compare digital to analog pretty well at this stage. Later, if you sell the stuff you don't want anymore, you can re-invest the money into whatever part you deem needs it most.

Get ready for a wonderful time. I am actually envious, because I know the happiness you are about to experience.

Oh, don't change a FREEKING THING in your Cornwalls. Not now, not a year from now.