Basic Tube Advice

[Poleelop]

I haven't been here in a while, so forgive me if I'm asking something that's already been answered. If the answer has already been posted, I'd appreciate it if you could kindly direct me in the right direction.

I have a pair of Klipsch Forte II's that I bought about a dozen or so years back. Currently, they're sitting unused, and seeing as they are my favorite of the 20 or so speakers I have in my house, I'd like to change that.

I'd like to match them up with a tube amp (or two), and I'd like some basic advice. Basically, I'm completely ignorant on the subject and up until a a few days ago, all I had was this vague understanding that Klipsch + tube amp = good.

I've done a little research in the past couple of days, but I don't feel much smarter. Any advice you can give me will be greatly appreciated. I don't feel the need to make these things "crank," but I wouldn't be opposed to it either. I know their are trade-offs within the various designs, but I'm not sure about the specifics.

Thanks in advance.

[Mike Lindsey]

There is a search function on the main menu page of the Forum. Select it and search the 2-channel forum for tube amp(s). You will get a boatload of responses and it may take you weeks to read it all...

Good luck, it's a never-ending journey...

Mike

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My Music Systems

[mobile homeless]

Write "Shapeshifter" an email and ask if you can purchase his Jolida 102B EL-84 integrated amp. I dont know if he is using it anymore and it is the perfect little amp to test some tubes out and see what floats your boat. It's simple circuit with easy to find NOS tubes. It will not require soldering if you dont want (but you can upgrade it). And is a fine little amp and attractive to boot. It's a perfect first time tube amp and will boogie to your hearts content!

kh

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Phono Linn Sondek LP-12 Valhalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point

CD Player Rega Planet

Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified

Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks

Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect

Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover

Links system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s>

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 09-05-2002 at 03:32 PM

[maxust]

Since Forte II are 99db you should be able to match them perfectly with one of the Decware ZEN tube amps (SET).

The ZENs are very simple amps with almost no coloration and very sweet sound. There is almost a cult following and you'll find everything about the ZENs at http://www.decware.com/tubes.htm. The simplest model SE84C costs $499 direct from the builder, and sounds better than most other amps costing 5-7 times as much. The best-sounding amp is $695 (Select model). They are all capable of driving speakers like yours.

Check out the web site (www.decware.com) as well as reviews on audioreview.com - 4.9 out of 5 with 41 reviews (http://www.audioreview.com/PRD_115750_1583crx.aspx).

Good luck,

Maxim.

[mobile homeless]

The verdict is still out on the little Zen amp, even via a 99dB speaker. I came very close to buying one years ago when it first emerged on the scene to "hear" and I exchanged mails with Steve Deckert many times early on. The site is a good one and the little Zen did develop a large following, although admittedly, most of the owners of the Zen are first time tube purchasers.

I was troubled by Steve's initial claim of 5w per channel with this little amp, especially when in reality the little tike comes in around 2w, if lucky. From all reports, it's an amazingly open little amp with a lot going for it, especially for the price. From talking to my DIY buddy in Quebec City, who has had 2A3 PP, 2A3 SET, 300B SET, V52 SET, as well as the Zen amp on loan for a few months from a friend, I was imformed the single Zen does not do well via his 100dB Lamhorns with AER mk I drivers. Although it held promise, when asked to do duty above and beyond the easy, things gota bit rough. One thing is for sure; Steve Deckert is great at marketing and has an excellent site. He amassed all his success from this site and by word of mouth.

Still, for the price, it is a great way to sample the Single-Ended sound even though the SV-83 (a close relative to the EL-84 made by Svetlana) is not a real directly heated triode.

kh

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 09-06-2002 at 07:28 AM

[edster00]

I auditioned a pair of the Decware Signature Zen Triode Mono Blocks model SV83M driving my 104dB efficient Khorns. I had tried several other higher powered tube amps when I got a pair of these. The 30 money back offer struck me as too good to pass up.

I loved these amps. They sound was very very good, the best I had heard from tube gear at that point in time. What I came to discover was they just didn't drive my Khorns loud enough for me. My listening room is ~14' x 22' and then amps ran out of steam at the low 90's dB range (as measured with a Rat Shack SPL meter at the listening spot ~17' from the speakers). Steve Deckert rates the amps at 3.6 wpc. I returned them after 28 days.

My first tube amp was a Jolida 801A, a great integrated offering, just waaay more power than I needed in my situation.

Keep us posted on your search!

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2 Channel System:

'78 Khorns w/ALK networks

Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks

*coming soon* Supratek Syrah preamp

McIntosh MCD 7007 CDP

Sony S9000ES SACD

McIntosh MR-78 Tuner

DIYCable Twisted Cross Connect Speaker Cable

Silver Audio Hyacinth interconnects (preamp->amp)

DIYCable Superlatives (CDP/SACD/->preamp)

DH Labs Silver Pulse interconnects (Tuner->preamp)

f>

s>

This message has been edited by edster00 on 09-06-2002 at 07:32 AM

[mobile homeless]

Edster, you also have to add that the SV83M Monoblock amps are his top of the line and not exactly cheap, coming in OVER what you paid for your used, fully loaded, ulitmate upgrade Welbourne Labs 2A3 Moondogs. AT about $2000, these SV83M amps are NOT cheap and I dont think worth that kind of scratch. What is more compelling is the little ugly duckling basic model or the Select version if you can find it used. Then we are talking 3-400 range at the most. The Select model is a lot better looking as well and has some parts upgrades that are worth it. Still, at about $700, it' starting to creep up... Both of these amps do turn up used on Audiogon for cheap. I dont think I have ever seen a pair of the Signature Mono SV83M sell very easily however considering the price.

kh

[Randy Bey]

I would have to agree on the Zen amps. That little lightweight (I've eaten heavier breakfasts) amp opened my eyes to tubes.

Gawdamighty, it sounded good.

But with 104/1/1 speakers, it just wasn't powerfull enough. Not by a long shot. At levels where human conversation takes place w/o shouting, the Zen was clipping.

I returned mine after 29 days, but the disease had taken hold of me by then. It was only a matter of time before I broke out into a blood sweat and bought a 300B amp. Amps. Whatever.

[Triode Pete]

You will have a variety of options regarding tube amplification.

If you consider Jolida amps, I would also consider the Antique Sound Labs (ASL) equipment. I was pretty impressed with ASL Tulip (2A3 based) SET. The build quality is good, the circuit topology is very good and is loaded with "potted" transformers (Choke, Output, Power Supply). I really can't figure out how they sell this amp for $999 retail. The parts & chassis would cost that much.

It must be the very, very reasonable Chinese labor & parts sourcing. BTW, the Jolida parts are from China & are quickly assembled in the USA (I believe Maryland).

If your'e not up to paying $1G, I would look at some vintage gear. In one of my systems, I have a vintage Fisher 500C receiver (~ 37 watts, great tuner section too!) which sounds great with my 96dB Heresy's.

From what I've read, Mobile Homeless' advice regarding vintage & new tube gear is top notch. I can't disagree with anything he's written.

Good Luck with your quest. A good tube amp is the way to go with horns!

Have fun & enjoy,

Pete

[Gregorius]

Poleelop,

I too seriously considered buying a Zen, the price was right in line for my first foray into tubes and horns. But after the considering the info from Randy and Edster about lack of volume, (I do like to turn it up occaisonally), I didn't buy one.

I ended up with a nice Fisher 800C tube receiver for about $300 total after shipping and restoration, and it sounds great with my Khorns.

Regards,

Greg

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HK AVR20 II

Toshiba DVD

32" Toshiba TV

Odyssey Stratos

1987 Khorns Mains

1976 LaScala's Rears

KV-1 Center

KSW-12 Sub

Two-Channel

Fisher 800C Receiver

1987 Khorns

Teac CDP

Pioneer TT

This message has been edited by Gregorius on 09-06-2002 at 07:56 AM

[ShapeShifter]

Poleelop,

I certainly agree with mobile's comments regarding the Jolida 102B as a good entry level integrated. It is a well made unit, most times they can be found at a reasonable price, and will would serve well (imo) to get beginners initiated into the tube sound. Practically all are plug and play, leaving one to concentrate on rolling tube to their delight.

I have only two petty issues with the 102B which are; 1) The lack of tube rectification, 2) No dedicated phono connection. But with the right combination of NOS tubes, speakers and about 30-40 minutes of operation.....you gradually realize..you are involved in the music. No doubt, owed to those EL84 tubes.

BTW - Haven't decided to sale mine yet.

Wes

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KLIPSCH IS MUSICf>

My Systems f>s>c>

[Poleelop]

Thanks so much for all the info. Right now....and with limited knowledge, I'm looking at all of the Antique Sound Labs integrated amps, the stuff from Audio Electronic Supply, and I've also been eyeing that BAT VK-60 at jeffssoundvalues. I probably can't justify spending that much though....especially for something that isn't new. At least not my first time out of the gate.

I'm not opposed to getting a kit; I'm relatively handy, so I don't think it would be that imposing. Finding the time though is another thing. I'd just like to be familiar with the amp as I understand they need some babysitting. It appears that if I go with push-pull, ultralinear, I get the most watts for the buck. Do I lose much of the so-called "tube sound" if I go that route? Do I really want SET? If so, why? Anyway, your help is greatly appreciated. If you have any more advice, keep it coming, and now...

....I'm off to surf the web and check out your suggestions.

[Poleelop]

Oh yeah....any comments on auto-bias? It probably isn't the best way to learn for a newbie, but laziness prevails. I'm intersted in it.

Also.....what is "rolling" tubes. Does that just mean changing them out with different ones to check out the differences?

[Deang]

Am I the only one who thinks the AES AE-25 SuperAmp is one of the best deals in tube amplification? Mine never ceases to please me, and has often dropped my jaw to the floor by doing things none of my high powered SS amps could do.

The AE-25 does have the auto-bias feature.

Yes, "rolling tubes" is changing out stock tubes for higher quality New Old Stock tubes made decades ago when manufacturing tolerences were tighter and when quality control actually meant something.

Those Jolidas are a good value.

Buying used is actually a good way to go -- you can really make the money stretch and get a far superior product.

Mobile and many others would say SET is the way to go. I almost did it myself a couple of times over the last 6 months. Since I have never heard a SET amp, I am not qualified to give an opinion. SET does appear to work extremely well with the Heritage line. A SET amp in kit form would certainly be easier to put together than a push-pull amp.

Since I do a lot of movies through my 2-channel setup, and the fact that I like my music fairly loud -- I opted for a higher powered push-pull amp, though more for the headroom than anything else. Volume wise, there isn't any real world difference between 8-9 watts, and 15-20 watts. I do think the Zen, at 3 watts -- is best left to those with the big horns and with those who don't listen to extreme volume levels.

http://www.upscaleaudio.com/ae-25.htm

Just my opinion.

This message has been edited by deang on 09-06-2002 at 10:57 AM

[mobile homeless]

Dean, where have you been? Listening to music? Burning yourself while rebuilding those pesky DQ-10 crossovers? Gazing at your new AE-3 DJH preamp? Wondering about gun control? heh... Indeed.

Yeah, the AES AE-25 Super Amp is a great sounding amp; it's extremely neutral, open, and damn transparent. On the used market, it can be found for 750-900 which is a nice price for the piece. While autobias does not always optimize the circuit for a particular tube, I think it's an acceptable compromise in a variery of circuits when done be a competent engineer.

The only fault I found with the Super Amp is it ultimately can be a bit harsh sounding... not HARSH harsh, as in solid state sound. But compared to the best in tubes, it can sound a bit edgy with a slight glare via horns. I found it did better with my ProAcs, to be honest. On my Cornwalls, the Super Amp was bettered by the vintage EICO integrated which had more soul, low end grunt, and natural timbre. The Super Amp was very transparent, but lacked the soul and chararcter exhibited by the vintage EICO.

Also, at 15w triode, I found it in a difficult position in that it did not match the sonics of my SET offerings. On the other hand, it lacked the drive and dynamic get-go of my vintage EICO, also rated around 14w of Williamson, stock, Pentode.

But yes, the Super Amp is a very nice sounding amp. The gentleman that bought the unit I had here has written me recently with nothing but fine comments. He is very happy, and this on 93dB speakers.

kh

ps-btw, since you are rolling in much better KT-88 valves, this might present a difference. The Svetlana KT-88 is a nice new alternative. I tried some Svetlana EL-34 in the Super Amp and liked what I heard but some of the low end definition was lost. I think the Jensen Oil cap upgrade is valid here. Also, I do believe the DJH version is bias adjustable, is it not? I thought it was. I know ALL the Super Amps have a rough bias adjustment in the back where you can plug a meter into the socket.

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 09-06-2002 at 11:12 AM

[Deang]

Mobile,

Yes, as a matter of fact I am in DQ hell. Restoring these to the level of detail I'm going is completely tedious, tiresome work. I am trying very, very, hard not to think about the fact that with the money I have in these to this point -- I am a mere $400 away from what some K-horns would have cost me. If I am not completely blown away by the sound when I'm done -- I will sell the whole system (Aragon 4004MKII, GAS Thalia, Marantz D7010, & the DQ's) and buy some BIG horns.

I've not listened to much music at all. I spend about 2 hours a night working on the DQ's and then go to bed. My wife has been a real trooper about this.

So, where has all the money gone? Jeesh. MIT Multicaps, Mills Resistors, inductors, Scan-Speak D2010 tweeters, new Motorola recessed piezos, ridiculously pricey 14 gauge OFC internal wiring, and all the stuff I needed to the physical restoration work. My bill from Percy Audio alone was almost $400 (just for the caps and resistors).

Right now I'm rolling my own midrange and tweeter inductors. Man oh man. To get the DCR I need, I need 312 turns with 26 gauge wire, on a cylinder that has a 13mm diameter and 18mm length. I used a 1 x .5 nylon spacer and sanded it down to exact size. I used nylon washers as my end caps. The end caps were epoxyed on. Last night was my fourth try of the week -- I finally rolled one that was perfect. I mean PERFECT. An hour after I rolled it the ends popped off. I wept like a child

As far as the AE-25 goes -- I think it the low end is kind of wimpy with the EL-34's. The bass was fairly lean sounding with the EL-34's with my RF7's. The amp takes on a very different sonic signature with the KT-88's/6550's.

I do believe the SuperAmp is probably a better match for Klipsch Reference two-ways, than Heritage 3-ways.