Audyssey Trims Bottomed Out for LaScalas and Subs

[wvu80]

22 minutes ago, ellisr63 said:

I have another solution for you... Have you thought about getting a high power 4 channel amp to get your surrounds up to the levels of your La Scalas? If you could do this your subs might be able to be turned up, and your LaScalas wouldn't be at -12.

It still won't help.  The LS are set by Audyssey at -12 because that is the level where they reach reference level for THX, which on my Onk AVR is 82.  Audyssey might change the level of the other speakers as you suggest but the LS are set at that point for a reason. 

 

This number seems to be consistent with several of us who use Audyssey to set LS or Khorns, so the -12 is probably not an anomaly but the New Normal.

 

 

[Youthman]

All I can say is after calibrating my system, it's never sounded better.  Tonight my son invited 3 friends over to watch "Lights Out".   The movie is pretty intense, especially the LFE and when the movie is really quiet and goes to extreme volumes during the scare sequences.  Dialogue is incredibly clear, surrounds are realistic sounding and the bass is crazy without being dominating.

[wvu80]

What did you end up doing with your subs, Youthman?  Set them to your liking after Audyssey was done with them?

[Youthman]

On 10/26/2016 at 10:08 AM, Youthman said:

The bass was the only thing that was underwhelming.  I've found Audyssey tends to turn my subs WAY down during calibration.  I bumped the two sub channels up from -3db to 0db on the trim.  Bass now blends very well with the mains without overpowering them.

See previous post above.

[wvu80]

19 minutes ago, Youthman said:

See previous post above.

Thanks, I was just curious.  You had changed all the other settings so much trying to fine tune I didn't know if you were still experimenting with subs.  I think without exception everybody I've read who uses Audyssey turns the subs up after calibration.

 

I take it you physically set the trim on the subs to 0 then made the adjustment from -3 to 0 in the AVR?

[Youthman]

10 minutes ago, wvu80 said:

You had changed all the other settings so much trying to fine tune I didn't know if you were still experimenting with subs.

No, I'm not much of a tweaker.  Once I get it right, I like to set it and forget it.

 

11 minutes ago, wvu80 said:

I take it you physically set the trim on the subs to 0 then made the adjustment from -3 to 0 in the AVR?

I ran Audyssey.  It set my subs to -3dB so in the AVR, I increased each sub trim to 0dB.  Not sure what that equates to but I basically increased 4 subs 3dB.  Mathematically that may not be correct since I have two subs connected to each of the two Sub Outs.

[NBPK402]

16 hours ago, wvu80 said:

It still won't help.  The LS are set by Audyssey at -12 because that is the level where they reach reference level for THX, which on my Onk AVR is 82.  Audyssey might change the level of the other speakers as you suggest but the LS are set at that point for a reason. 

 

This number seems to be consistent with several of us who use Audyssey to set LS or Khorns, so the -12 is probably not an anomaly but the New Normal.

 

 

I have to disagree with you as when I had my LaScalas (and my current 114db horns) they were not set to -12 after Audyssey (with more power going to the surrounds or less power going to the LCRs) when I had my Denon AVR.

[derrickdj1]

I say we vote on this Nov. 8th, lol.

[wvu80]

1 hour ago, ellisr63 said:

I have to disagree with you as when I had my LaScalas (and my current 114db horns) they were not set to -12 after Audyssey (with more power going to the surrounds or less power going to the LCRs) when I had my Denon AVR.

Interesting.  Your results are what the rest of us on this thread have been trying to accomplish and of course that is the core proposition of this entire thread.  Let me see if I follow your argument (the logic of what your experience was).  I am not questioning the results of your experience, I am just trying to follow the math, as it were.

 

I should qualify this by saying I use Audyssey but I do not fully understand how it works from a technical point of view.

 

You are saying that by having MORE power going to the surrounds, there is LESS power being directed to the L/C/R by Audyssey?  I still can't work it out in my head.

 

For instance I have Khorns L/R which are set by Aud to -12.  My center is an MTM dome speaker and is closer to 90 db/1 meter.  Aud sets it at +3.  What do you think Aud would set the L/C/R at if I had 3 Korns L/C/R?

 

I think all three speakers would be set at -12.  Do you think Aud might set a lower value like a -6?

[Youthman]

1 hour ago, wvu80 said:

You are saying that by having MORE power going to the surrounds, there is LESS power being directed to the L/C/R by Audyssey?  I still can't work it out in my head.

I'm with you.  I'm not following it either.  I'm a little slow sometimes.  LOL

 

 

[NBPK402]

2 hours ago, wvu80 said:

Interesting.  Your results are what the rest of us on this thread have been trying to accomplish and of course that is the core proposition of this entire thread.  Let me see if I follow your argument (the logic of what your experience was).  I am not questioning the results of your experience, I am just trying to follow the math, as it were.

 

I should qualify this by saying I use Audyssey but I do not fully understand how it works from a technical point of view.

 

You are saying that by having MORE power going to the surrounds, there is LESS power being directed to the L/C/R by Audyssey?  I still can't work it out in my head.

 

For instance I have Khorns L/R which are set by Aud to -12.  My center is an MTM dome speaker and is closer to 90 db/1 meter.  Aud sets it at +3.  What do you think Aud would set the L/C/R at if I had 3 Korns L/C/R?

 

I think all three speakers would be set at -12.  Do you think Aud might set a lower value like a -6?

When I originally did my setup with La Scalas...my Denon 4520 knocked my fronts down to -12. If you think about it all Audyssey wants to do is get all the channels to be equal levels. If your surrounds can't get to the those levels (which it might not be able to do with an AVR with all channels running) it will knock down the loudest channels as much as possible (-12) to get them the same. If (-12) is not enough it will stop cutting them down (as it cannot go lower due to programming). As I recall the max boost is +10...so we have a 2db discrepancy here also which could also mean the fronts are still too powerful for the surrounds to reach the required levels. In addition THX has requirements for each speaker to have certain frequency response and SPL levels. If the rears can't be raised high enough to  get the frequency response... I would assume that it would stop with raising the levels, and just cut the most efficient down to -12.

 

I ended up going with some little t-chip amps for the front 3 channels (25 or 30wpc, and I set the levels set at around 1 o'clock (it has been a while so I am working off of memory here). I ran Audyssey again, and now the LaScalas were around -5 when Audyssey was ran. Since the LaScalas are 104db efficient, and would only use a few watts, would this not indicate that a smaller amp on the fronts allows higher output to the surrounds? 

 

 

[garyrc]

59 minutes ago, ellisr63 said:

I ended up going with some little t-chip amps for the front 3 channels (25 or 30wpc, and I set the levels set at around 1 o'clock (it has been a while so I am working off of memory here). I ran Audyssey again, and now the LaScalas were around -5 when Audyssey was ran. Since the LaScalas are 104db efficient, and would only use a few watts, would this not indicate that a smaller amp on the fronts allows higher output to the surrounds? 

 

I don't think Audyssey cares about whether an amp is smaller or bigger (lower or higher rated power), but it does care about the input sensitivity of the amp.  So, if the level controls on the sensitivity of your little t-chip amps were all the way up (say, 5 O'clock), your La Scala channels would probably be set by Audyssey at -12, which might mean that the correct level is -12 or even lower, beyond Audyssey's ability to attenuate, e.g., an impossible -13, -14,-15, etc.  But you turned the sensitivity down to about 1 O'clock (as you remember).  That would like putting attenuators in the line between the preamp/processor and  power amps, which is what many of us with efficient speakers had to do.  In fact, everybody I know of who has Khorns, La Scalas, or Belle Klipsch got a setting of -12 assigned by Audyssey, and had to use attenuators or some other strategy.

 

As I understand it, Audyssey attempts to adjust each channel to the same, standard, SPL, period (75 dB unless the owner changes the set-up procedure),  One channel's amplification doesn't affect what happens to another channel.  It is just that with speakers as efficient as Khorns, L.S. or Belle, if Audyssey turns down the level all the way down to - 12,, the aforementioned speakers are still too loud, i.e., louder than Audyssey's standard level. That level is 75 dB (30 dB below full scale of 105 dB for LCR and surround) from the Main Listening Position, unless the owner of the system is attempting some manipulations, which is another, long, story.

[wvu80]

52 minutes ago, ellisr63 said:

if you think about it all Audyssey wants to do is get all the channels to be equal levels. If your surrounds can't get...

Ah, I think this might be where our understanding of what Aud is trying to do might diverge.  I think what you said (bolded, above) is necessary but not sufficient for what Aud is trying to do. I would add to your sentence "equal at Reference Level."

 

Quote

Movies are mixed in rooms calibrated for film reference.  To achieve the same reference level in a home theater system each speaker level must be adjusted so that –30 dBFS band-limited (500 Hz – 2000 Hz) pink noise produces 75 dB sound pressure level at the listening position.  A home theater system automatically calibrated by Audyssey MultEQ will play at reference level when the master volume control is set to the 0 dB position.  At that level you can hear the mix at the same level the mixers heard it.   (bolding by wvu80)

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/73283-dynamic-eq-and-reference-level

If you have the time, click on the link so we are on the same page.  It explains more about Aud setting SP levels than I knew existed.   

 

I've got the lowest level of Aud on my Onkyo 717 so I have fewer options.  That may help explain the discrepancies. 

[NBPK402]

Just now, garyrc said:

 

I don't think Audyssey cares about whether an amp is smaller or bigger (lower or higher rated power), but it does care about the input sensitivity of the amp.  So, if the level controls on the sensitivity of your little t-chip amps were all the way up (say, 5 O'clock), your La Scala channels would probably be set by Audyssey at -12, which might mean that the correct level is -12 or even lower, beyond Audyssey's ability to attenuate, e.g., an impossible -13, -14,-15, etc.  But you turned the sensitivity down to about 1 O'clock (as you remember).  That would like putting attenuators in the line between the preamp/processor and  power amps, which is what many of us with efficient speakers had to do.  In fact, everybody I know of who has Khorns, La Scalas, or Belle Klipsch got a setting of -12 assigned by Audyssey, and had to use attenuators or some other strategy.

By what you are saying...you are loosing the efficiency of the La Scalas by allowing Audyssey to reduce the levels by 12db to get them up to the levels of the surrounds. This sure sounds like a waste of efficiency to me. I would much rather have a smaller amp powering them than having the AVR turn them down.

[derrickdj1]

Input level is important.  The tell, tell things is at -12 that the spl at the mic measuring spot is around 75 -73 db.  Auddysee has the ability to raise surronds I'm guessing to +12 db.  I know the Pioneer Elites go from -12 to +12 for calibration.

[NBPK402]

20 minutes ago, wvu80 said:

Ah, I think this might be where our understanding of what Aud is trying to do might diverge.  I think what you said (bolded, above) is necessary but not sufficient for what Aud is trying to do. I would add to your sentence "equal at Reference Level."

 

If you have the time, click on the link so we are on the same page.  It explains more about Aud setting SP levels than I knew existed.   

 

I've got the lowest level of Aud on my Onkyo 717 so I have fewer options.  That may help explain the discrepancies. 

I understand...now think about this scenario.

You have a AVR that is 100wpc (lets assume that it actually will do this to all channels at once), LCRs are 104db, and surrounds are 92db. Reference level is 115db...so we need only 11db more for the LCRs, and 23db more for the surrounds (this is not allowing any headroom at all). The surrounds would require 256wpc (going to 116db which is 1db of headroom) while the main channels would only need 16wpc (going to 116db which is 1db of headroom). The surrounds can reach 110db with 64wpc, where the fronts can reach reference level. Do you see a problem with that 100wpc AVR now? This is why people buy larger amps for their setups than a AVR. Now if you have preamp outs and get a 250wpc amp for all the surrounds, you can now reach reference levels at all the speakers. This is all assuming that you are getting 100wpc with all channels driven at once which I would be very surprised to be what is happening. In Youthmans situation a high power 4 channel amp would suit him better if he wants to be able to enjoy reference levels. If Youthman was to run a smaller amp for the fronts...it would free up more power from the AVR to get the surrounds to reference levels. The numbers I chose for the surround efficiency is arbitrary as i do not know the efficiency of his surrounds, but I bet they are less efficient than the La Scalas.

[NBPK402]

8 minutes ago, derrickdj1 said:

Input level is important.  The tell, tell things is at -12 that the spl at the mic measuring spot is around 75 -73 db.  Auddysee has the ability to raise surronds I'm guessing to +12 db.  I know the Pioneer Elites go from -12 to +12 for calibration.

I think my Denon with XT32 only went +10, but then we get into even at +10 can the receiver even hit reference levels for the surrounds since boosting them is using more power to reach reference levels? It makes me think that if it is knocking them down 12db the surrounds must be at least 12db less efficient than the La Scalas. Personally I prefer to have at least 3db headroom, and I believe that was pretty much recommended years ago.

[derrickdj1]

4 hours ago, ellisr63 said:

Reference level is 115db...so we need only 11db more for the LCRs, and 23db more for the surrounds (this is not allowing any headroom at all). The surrounds would require 256wpc (going to 116db which is 1db of headroom) while the main channels would only need 16wpc (going to 116db which is 1db of headroom).

I noticed years ago that the surround channels benefited the most from an external amp.  Efficiency of the surrounds, FH, SB and Atmos speakers are important  My FH speakers are on the power amp along with the LRC.  The FH trims are around +7 or +8.  The SB are also in the positive trim zone.

 

Although the avr is most likely never sending a high demand signal to all the surronds and mains at the same time, I can see how the avr would have to leave 3 db of head room to not cause amp or speaker damage.  A lot of our Avr's will produce more into 4 ohms but, the question is how much.  I have also noticed that if the subs are hot during autocalibration, the trims are pushed even more positve to keep the spl at the main MLP 73 db.  MCACC calculates the subs lower than Auddysee.

[NBPK402]

After looking at the specs on the surrounds... they are 7db less efficient than his fronts. So his surrounds need 64wpc to hit reference levels. Youthmans AVR is rated at 145wpc x2 with 8 ohms...here is a link. This brings up a question as to why his surrounds are knocked down -7, and his mains -12...could it be that the AVR doesn't have the power to run the 97db speaker to reference levels, and is trying to get the levels the same for all the channels (even if they can't hit reference levels)?

[NBPK402]

Just now, derrickdj1 said:

I noticed years ago that the surround channels benefited the most from an external amp.  Efficiency of the surrounds, FH, SB and Atmos speakers are important  My FH speakers are on the power amp along with the LRC.  The FH trims are around +7 or +8.  The SB are also in the positive trim zone.

 

Although the avr is most likely never sending a high demand to all the surronds and mains at the same time, I can see how the avr would have to leave 3 db of head room to not cause amp or speaker damage.  A lot of our Avr's will produce more into 4 ohms but, the question is how much.  I have also noticed that if the subs are hot during autocalibration, the trims are pushed even more positve to keep the spl at the main MLP 73 db.  MCACC calculates the subs lower than Auddysee.

I agree. I am curious...what is the difference in the spec'd efficiency of your LRC, and FH? Could it be 7-8db?