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RSVRMAN

Jubilee advice needed.

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I see some mute buttons red on the Xilica screen shot. Surely nothing is muted that should not be, correct? And the limiters are wide open? i.e. +20dBu. Where are your input and output gains set? And when you play a source what are the meters showing?

Your Marantz pre/pro should be able to put tons of signal into the Xilica.

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2 hours ago, Khornukopia said:

 

Have you operated your system with one D75a on a single speaker channel and one XLS1502 on the other speaker channel, for a direct comparison?

I plan to do this early afternoon. 

1 hour ago, babadono said:

I see some mute buttons red on the Xilica screen shot. Surely nothing is muted that should not be, correct? And the limiters are wide open? i.e. +20dBu. Where are your input and output gains set? And when you play a source what are the meters showing?

Your Marantz pre/pro should be able to put tons of signal into the Xilica.

That was when I was initially setting it up. Nothing is muted. I sent my file to Chris and screenshots for him to take a look at. He already replied that everything looks normal. 

 

Attached are some screen grabs from my xilica. I have not touched the GEQ (input EQ). You can see all that per each channel each input is set to 0, which is max. My gain on the amps is 75% to max at 1.4V. 


Xilica shows all meters green  1-2 bars when playing music. However, on the amps I'm only seeing one green bar when I have the volume at 90% output on the Marantz receiver, which I would think I would see those limiters a lot higher on the amps and is why I was thinking the amps weren't getting enough input volts. 

 

I'm currently taking a look at the dynamic controls on my Marantz as on AVS forum I saw a writeup on how it can affect output voltage. 

 

Getting things crossed off on what it isn't, which is good. It just seems so flat and that I have zero slam on the lower end, which the D75a could do. 

jub1.JPG

jub2.JPG

jub3.JPG

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Well learned something new again. Babadono was correct. The input was too low on the Xilica. The Marantz can put out 2.4V but the Crown XLS amps would need their gains near maxed to achieve their max output. I bumped this up to +15 gain, which is maxed on all channels and was able to back the crown xls gain all the way down to about 40%. 

 

Backing the gain down, I was able to get the horns to quiet down a lot. I was able to hear the airiness to within 6' of the mouth. I used the kid and he was able to hear it at 8'. I turned the amps on and off to see his accuracy. He has better hearing for sure. I then swapped in my D75a and I had to stand directly in front of the horn to hear it. Kid said he could hear it at 3'. The D75a is noticeably more quiet. I will say the airiness is pure and sounds more as someone barely blowing warm air on their hand and not the usual snake hiss. I've had the snake hiss on my RF7 which is rather unpleasant, the airiness does not bother me, which is the most important factor. 

 

Now onto listening. Take this with a complete grain of salt, as this is not measured and I personally despise audio talk without measurements to back it up. So on that note I will say the D75a, even though it is solid state has a noticeable amount of character or rather color in its tone. Here is what I did. I matched the SPL levels by using the input level on the Xilica. I then put on a 2 hour Gregorian chant. (My neighbors are probably wondering when the goat sacrifice is) I then grabbed a 25' long USB cable and from my listening muted Left, then Right inputs on the Xilica. Back and forth I switched them to discern the difference. The nice thing about using this tune is there is continuous vocals and they always seem to be at the right pitch to discern any differences. As its repeated it's quite easy to tell differences. 

 

What I did then was open up the GEQ and applied some EQ to the Crown XLS side. Switching it up, I was able to get very close after only about 20 minutes of listening. I will continue to dial them in for the time being. I'm a bit undecided on putting an EQ on things as it flavors the music and I've always tried to keep things pure, however the D75a has a coloration to it so maybe all along I've believed it was neutral, when it wasn't.  So my thoughts now are that the Crown XLS is as flat, neutral as it comes. It seems pulled back and honestly boring. Which I see as a good thing for those that absolutely do not want to change their sound signature from upstream devices. It has really challenged my belief and will take some time to digest. Much like people that have very strong political views, change isn't something that happens overnight.

 

All in all I will say for those starting out, the D75a is an absolute hell of an amplifier for the price and pairing with Jubes. If mine weren't all failing in some way or another, or if I could buy a brand new one with all brand new capacitors across the board, new pots and silicon I'd have one in my hands tomorrow. 

 

For now I will continue to dial in the XLS 1502. I've left the PEQ alone and just playing with GEQ to get the lower end up a bit as well as a few bumps midrange. I'm getting a lot more limiters lit up and I'm getting a LOT more slam now. Enough that I went outside to ensure it wasn't too loud going to the adjacent property. It's too early to tell on what I will do with the K402. If I'm not happy after all this, I will probably start considering tubes, as maybe I do prefer a little coloring to my music. 

 

Thanks again to Chris and Babadono for the help. Hopefully as this thread/journey continues it will help others as well. 

 

PS. Goat goes down at 7:00PM

Jub4.JPG

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I tried to read as much that you wrote as possible, but unfortunately I am a little buzzed from gin and tonic so please excuse me if this has been covered. Your xls amps should have a sensitivity setting. Also, like Chris has mentioned most of your hiss appears to be from gain structure, something I've gone back and forth on, and to me its like fine tuning a carb. I adjusted the AVR or Pre/pro volume all the way up with the speaker levels up. Now this may not be accurate as you want the full voltage output possible without distortion from the avr, then increase gain on the main channel inputs of the electronic crossover until clipping occurs. There is typically a light that comes on when done so, which most newer equipment is fairly accurate. Then set the gain of the amp to highest adjustment until clipping, back it off a bit from there. Its a back and forth to get the most out of the gain structure without hiss.

There are a lot of folks who have a certain way to set the game. This is what has worked for me to get the best out of the system with minimal hiss. Those d75as are great amp and should have been more than enough, with clean power to boot. There are tools that can be used for this, oscilloscope, dvm, dd1 plus. But you can get close.

The pros will tell you why I am wrong and I can accept that, however, this is what I found works for me. Again, I feel its like fine tuning a carb.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

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4 hours ago, RSVRMAN said:

Xilica shows all meters green  1-2 bars when playing music. However, on the amps I'm only seeing one green bar when I have the volume at 90% output on the Marantz receiver, which I would think I would see those limiters a lot higher on the amps and is why I was thinking the amps weren't getting enough input volts. 

I don't have a Xilica, but the Ev dx38 - preamp matchup  had the same problem. Not enough line voltage between the preamp (consumer) and the DX (pro), I had to turn up the preamp to almost full to get a decent signal. The xilica CAN fix this the DX can't so I had to add a Art Clean Box Pro, it gives you a way to adjust the line level, it was just what I need and works great and dead quiet.

 

The DX works great but not nearly as fancy as the Xilica, especially with info like you posted, it's much easier to see what;s going on, but until this DX breaks I'll keep it.

 

https://www.amazon.com/ART-CLEANBoxPro-2-channel-Unbalanced-Converter/dp/B003S7T49K/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&hvadid=78340274293672&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvqmt=e&keywords=art+cleanbox+pro&qid=1598657173&sr=8-1&tag=mh0b-20

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As for your d75as, check and see what North Redding engineering can do. He customizes those amps for this sort of thing and so on. I ran the d45 until I felt I wanted more power, then moved to the Parasound HCA line, which has similar power but made for home audio.

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43 minutes ago, RSVRMAN said:

For now I will continue to dial in the XLS 1502. I've left the PEQ alone and just playing with GEQ to get the lower end up a bit as well as a few bumps midrange.

Roy never added any PEQ to my 1502 amp, that surprised me since he told me to get a Crown 1002 which led me to believe he wanted to add some PEQ but no.

 

But also it's not Jube bass bins but MWM so it may be a little different ?

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1 hour ago, The Dude said:

I tried to read as much that you wrote as possible, but unfortunately I am a little buzzed from gin and tonic so please excuse me if this has been covered. Your xls amps should have a sensitivity setting. Also, like Chris has mentioned most of your hiss appears to be from gain structure, something I've gone back and forth on, and to me its like fine tuning a carb. I adjusted the AVR or Pre/pro volume all the way up with the speaker levels up. Now this may not be accurate as you want the full voltage output possible without distortion from the avr, then increase gain on the main channel inputs of the electronic crossover until clipping occurs. There is typically a light that comes on when done so, which most newer equipment is fairly accurate. Then set the gain of the amp to highest adjustment until clipping, back it off a bit from there. Its a back and forth to get the most out of the gain structure without hiss.

There are a lot of folks who have a certain way to set the game. This is what has worked for me to get the best out of the system with minimal hiss. Those d75as are great amp and should have been more than enough, with clean power to boot. There are tools that can be used for this, oscilloscope, dvm, dd1 plus. But you can get close.

The pros will tell you why I am wrong and I can accept that, however, this is what I found works for me. Again, I feel its like fine tuning a carb.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk
 

Great analogy. Tuned plenty of carbs in my past. I got the gains tuned the way I like it. I prefer to keep the gain as low as possible so the speakers are as quiet as possible when nothing is played. It also allows for a lot more volume control on the Prepro Marantz. Now I can go 80 and its beyond me wanting to be in the room. I dont need to go 98, as the higher voltage then puts the Marantz in distortion territory. 

33 minutes ago, dtel said:

I don't have a Xilica, but the Ev dx38 - preamp matchup  had the same problem. Not enough line voltage between the preamp (consumer) and the DX (pro), I had to turn up the preamp to almost full to get a decent signal. The xilica CAN fix this the DX can't so I had to add a Art Clean Box Pro, it gives you a way to adjust the line level, it was just what I need and works great and dead quiet.

 

The DX works great but not nearly as fancy as the Xilica, especially with info like you posted, it's much easier to see what;s going on, but until this DX breaks I'll keep it.

 

https://www.amazon.com/ART-CLEANBoxPro-2-channel-Unbalanced-Converter/dp/B003S7T49K/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&hvadid=78340274293672&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvqmt=e&keywords=art+cleanbox+pro&qid=1598657173&sr=8-1&tag=mh0b-20

I have a DC-One still sitting here and it has the same ability as the Xilica, just different menus. As I didnt use any gain on my D75a this was a new option on the Xilica I previously didn't know anything about or used. I've heard nothing but good things about the cleanbox and would have considered this as a first option if I couldn't bump up my levels. 

 

I never had a DX-38, but compared to the electrovoice DC-ONE the Xilica seems to have a lot more options. More PEQ values, EQ values. It has more Outputs as well and the software is much easier to navigate. I did not notice any difference in sound from the two and got the Xilica for the sole purpose of having another output for future horn subwoofer. 

31 minutes ago, The Dude said:

As for your d75as, check and see what North Redding engineering can do. He customizes those amps for this sort of thing and so on. I ran the d45 until I felt I wanted more power, then moved to the Parasound HCA line, which has similar power but made for home audio.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk
 

Is  that the person that built "The Duke"? I had considered having a person repair them, but personally I feel I'm going to continue to have this issue down the road, as the amplifier is 20 years old. I just want things to work and chose new for the time being. 

26 minutes ago, dtel said:

Roy never added any PEQ to my 1502 amp, that surprised me since he told me to get a Crown 1002 which led me to believe he wanted to add some PEQ but no.

 

But also it's not Jube bass bins but MWM so it may be a little different ?

He wanted to add peq values to your DSP on the amp or on the DX-38?  Assuming you are using the 1002 on the bass bins and what are you using on the horns? 

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The person who built "the duke" was the one who but the Peach and Blueberry, great pre amps that started alot of other issues. North Redding carried on the idea of the Duke and made it more. The old timers around could tell you who the original Duke builder was (I believe his first name is Mark). Both were members here at one time or another. North Redding is still around and post once and a while.

Key thing to remember about gain amps is that they are sensitivity adjustments, which is why you've had to crank them on the power amp. Goal is to increase that sensitivity before the amp and why when using them to compensate the input voltage, you get the hiss. More voltage before in the chain, the less you turn the gains up on the amp. Same goes for fuel supply, supply more fuel before the carb, the less the intake has to work....I think.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

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On the note of the db quite box. It helps so all of this which isn't as necessary with an active crossover and cranking the levels of the pre/pro. Which Crown adding the sensitivity adjustment helps and I applaud pro audio for acknowledging this, just wish home audio would realize how many people are using pro amps in home audio and accommodate us, hence why I found a home audio amp that works in the system as well, plus they can be purchased with 12 volt triggers and rack mounted.

 

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, RSVRMAN said:

You can see all that per each channel each input is set to 0, which is max

Huh? Which Xilica do you have? My XP4080 has 15 db of gain available on both inputs and outputs IIRC. Shucks now I'm gonna have to go hookup this laptop and check.

Sorry read further posts now , I see you discovered that you CAN turn up the gain on the Xilica.:biggrin::emotion-21:

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5 minutes ago, babadono said:

Huh? Which Xilica do you have? My XP4080 has 15 db of gain available on both inputs and outputs IIRC. Shucks now I'm gonna have to go hookup this laptop and check.

Sorry read further posts now , I see you discovered that you CAN turn up the gain on the Xilica.:biggrin:

We are probably talking different things. On the Mixer, choosing the channel that goes to the output is adjustable and the max is 0.

 

On the input the max is 15DB. 

 

I opened a blank XConsole to screen shot. ( For new Jube owners do not use these values as a reference)

 

 

Jube5.JPG

jube6.JPG

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Roger, and there is 15 dB avail. on the outputs too. IIRC

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2 minutes ago, babadono said:

Roger, and there is 15 dB avail. on the outputs too. IIRC

Correct. Roys settings allow for a minor DB bump on the output, which I did not touch. Bumping the input didn't increase noise floor and allowed me to adjust the gain all the way down on the amps. Win win! Learned something new as well on the Xilica. 

 

What amps are you using on yours?

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I have been using a Boulder 500 on the bass bins and bridged Crown D75( refurb'ed by me) on each TAD on the 402s. Recently I finished up a DIY amp based on the  T.I. 3255 eval board and am now using it on the bass bins. And using the Boulder on the 402s.

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And some of my D75 refurb. is here:

 

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6 hours ago, RSVRMAN said:

I've heard nothing but good things about the cleanbox and would have considered this as a first option if I couldn't bump up my levels.

It worked great, it was quite surprising to find something that was made for exactly the problem I had and it was cheap, does not happen very often. When Roy heard of it, it is what he used to gain match the tube amp and SS amp in the listening room in Hope, it's perfect for matching gain. But if it's already a feature of the active crossover that's the better way to go, it's not on the DX.

 

6 hours ago, RSVRMAN said:

I never had a DX-38, but compared to the electrovoice DC-ONE the Xilica seems to have a lot more options. More PEQ values, EQ values.

It does have more options, the DX has all the PEQ and Eq needed, just a harder menu and not the same displays to make it easy to see what's going on. 

 

6 hours ago, RSVRMAN said:

I did not notice any difference in sound from the two and got the Xilica for the sole purpose of having another output for future horn subwoofer. 

I do not use anything for the horn sub, just the amp and it's inline before and separate from the active crossover.

The Dx is 2 in and 4 out, it's all I need it to do, if I ever have a problem with it i will try the Xilica, unless there is something else out ?

5 hours ago, The Dude said:

Key thing to remember about gain amps is that they are sensitivity adjustments, which is why you've had to crank them on the power amp. Goal is to increase that sensitivity before the amp and why when using them to compensate the input voltage, you get the hiss. More voltage before in the chain, the less you turn the gains up on the amp.

Yes increase the line voltage before the amp but mainly before the active crossover where it really matters, then the output is fine going to the amps. But not because of sensitivity adjustments of a gain amp but because there is from the beginning a considerable difference of line voltage from consumer products to pro products. From the start there is this problem, when you match the line voltage they do great. 

When I had a mismatch in line voltage I would have to crank up the output of the active crossover and the amps at the same time almost max out the preamp volume, and still did not get a good match up.

 

I have ran 2 different pairs of amps wide open and never had the slightest hiss, at all. And this is putting your head inside the 402 between songs when cranked up, no hiss at all, if I got lucky I was really lucky, it's been setup like this for over 11 years, since 2009.

I say lucky because all the wires just run behind everything, crossing others in no particular order, almost like asking for a problem but never had any noise. Good thing because i would have had a mess to go through and have a hard time figuring it out.

It does surprise me with the 402 horn size and it's sensitivity it would not take much to make noise, I need to go knock on some wood.

 

I love the speakers and I love the 1502 sub, amazing together, I couldn't possibly ask for more, I don't even look at other speakers anymore. 

 

     

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