Best 2 Channel CD source

[AndyKubicki]

From everything I've read and heard lately, a good recording is good mastering, and mastering properly for the medium. I have yet to make the comparison myself, but I feel that my sentiments may run close to Tony's. Surface noise bothers me, and though you can get an inexpensive TT, to properly care for vinyl would require the purchase of a good cleaning system. Dave makes a good point, that there are unique recordings only available on old vinyl. I would love to hear that version of Rhapsody in Blue. I think I have a live version of Benny Goodman's Sing Sing Sing at Carnagie Hall where the band just cooked! I could see having a TT to enjoy music like that, though with a nice sound card, that could be digitized fairly well also.

Jim suggested upsampling DAC. This has caught my eye lately: http://upscaleaudio.com/cd4000.htm Tubed CD player with the flexibility to upgrade op amps, AND an upgrade to an upsampling board! Since funds are a concern, this can be done in steps as funds permit, so this is tempting. But will it sound better than the new technology (SACD or DVDa, etc.) if I were to spend the same amount (that would include the Sony 9000ES)? Fortunatley, I live close enough to where I will soon make the trip to audition the Ah! Anyone else in the area?

Tbabb, I need to digest what you posted there. It does look like a better alternative than SACD. I need to go read that now!

[maxg]

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On 10/1/2002 12:30:36 AM AndyKub wrote:

Surface noise bothers me, and though you can get an inexpensive TT, to properly care for vinyl would require the purchase of a good cleaning system.

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I am not sure I would concur with that assumption. I do not clean my records - I never have. I do wipe them down with an anti-static brush before each play and I do occasionally clean the needle with some clear-audio fluid a friend gave me but that is about it.

If a record arrives in my hands without surface noise it seems to stay that way. I have a few records that have been with me since the early 80's (and played numerous times on unmentionably bad equipment). These are still without surface noise to this day.

In all honesty I am at a loss to explain how I have so little surface noise - maybe I am just lucky but it is important to note that I too came back to analogue from digital, am also very sensitive to it and was utterly amazed when I fired up the TT for the first time.

Methinks that maybe the most important thing is the proper alignment of the cartridge and that it is misalignment that causes much of what others are hearing.

This is just a theory of course - I have nothing to back it up with.

[Mallette]

Interesting. I can attest to the superiority of 24/96. It is clearly audible, and is the first medium since reel to reel to be able to capture LP adequately. Further, I did a location recording of a chamber group last Friday and took my audio server (Card Deluxe) along for the ride. As this was a real paying gig for CD release, I could not afford to pay any attention to it, and unfortunately one of the mic cables had a flaw or bad connection resulting in a bad left channel. Nonetheless the remaining right info was clearly superior to the 16/44.1 "real" master. I am psyched about this and plan more extensive testing under "no pressure" conditions at my church. With CDeluxe, and perhaps with others I've not tried, high end CD playback and 24/96 record ability is affordable to even the most financially challenged (like me!) audiophile. The new Shuttle SS40G MB/Case promises a wonderful home for this card in a small, attractive, quiet, and portable environment.

I would also point out that my 16/44.1 was far superior to any but a few commercially released CD's I've ever heard. The venue was a poor choice for chamber music, with a 4 second (clean, but still too much) decay time. Nonetheless, the music was captured with magic. I'm not tootimg my own skills here, as I am mystified by this myself. I can only posit that, as mentioned above, the commercial releases are mucked with too much. My client will recieve a master disk with exactly the ones and zeros of my DAT with no transcoding, processing, EQ, or whatever. Any difference in playback quality will be traceable to the system, as I can transfer back to DAT from it or any subsequent copies and prove the original quality. I try to get it right on location rather than "fix in the mix."

Jim: Keep us informed on your travel plans, and we'll try to get up a listen fest.

Dave

[Mallette]

Forgot something.

If you get $tereophile, you may have noticed the review of a solvent called "Premier." I THINK it was www.microcare.com. The stuff wasn't designed as a record cleaner, but is reputed to have a very high solvent ability to bad stuff and not to good, as well as to disappear nicely.

While I've been a "wash 'em in the sink" guy, I may give this a try.

Dave

[sunnysal]

I use an upsampling DAC, an MSB link DAC III with an upsampling upgrade. It did improve the sound of my CDs somewhat. I would never claim that my aversion to surface noise is "right" for everyone but now that I have been spoiled by "perfect sound forever" (LOL) I cannot go back to the TT and LPs...funny since I just won 250 classical albums in the reviewing sweepstakes at Audiogon....they do look impressive on my book shelves though...warm regards, tony

[Mallette]

We had the opposite experience. After over 10 years of CD-only, I got my turntable hooked up and listened as though I'd been in music starvation for a decade. I didn't hear any surface noise for MONTHS, and even then, it didn't bother me as much as the audience at a live concert.

Well, like I said, we all percieve things differently...and that's a GOOD thing!

Dave

[dubai2000]

tony,

well just in case you need space on your bookshelf I wouldn't mind taking those albums off your hands - just kiddin'.

I must say that up to a point I understand your remarks concerning surface noise, but in my experience the amount of surface noise seems to 'disappear behind the music' with a good quality TT/Arm/Cartridge and proper adjustment. Still, a good cleaning system helps, but those strike me as far too expensive (at least for my current budget).

Wolfram

[No Disc]

I gave up on Vinyl 15 or so years ago, but now I'm ready to get back in. I don't plan to give up CDs, and probably will dabble in 24/96 DAD since I already have a few DVD players around.

I too worried about pops, and surface noise. I had to prove it to myself so I went to a buddies place and had him play both the CDs and LP versions of a few different tracks. I liked the LP every time. It wasn't night and day, but the LP definitely had a more musical and natural sound to it.

I believe there is room for both formats in my life.

-tb

[AndyKubicki]

Yes, there is room for any good quality and affordable format. I guess I'm trying to assign an order in which to get them as fundding permits.

[jnorv]

OK, you LP nuts, have any of you played with the capacitance of the connection between your TT and Phono input. I have read that this match makes a big difference in quality.

Jim N

[Mallette]

My Grados say "non-sensitive to capacitance" on them. My Stanton 310 preamp I use for 78's has 50-100-200 switches on the back for EACH channel. That seems weird. I have it at 50, which, if I recall correctly, is the "normal" for most MM carts.

Anybody else have thoughts?

Dave

[maxg]

When I had the Pro-ject Phonobox SE at my house a couple of weeks ago I played with the settings mated to my Pro-ject K4 (badged Grado MM cartridge). It was initially set to 47 ohms and I tried the 100 ohm setting. I couldnt hear any difference at all so I switched it back to its normal setting.

Maybe it is more of an issue for MC cartridges than for MM..

[Super_BQ]

I'm kinda suprised no one has mentioned about running full balanced sources? If you want better CD players, consumer audio doesn't offer much choice. Look for pro-gear like they use in the recording studios. They are not cheap but they are well worth the $$ as they use better components (ie. Jensen audio transformers, polypropylene caps, etc.)

I should add that sound quality is based on preference. However from a sound engineer's point of view, the overall goal is to have music reproduced as accurately as possible. When you enter vinyl records into the equation - you are comparing apples and oranges as it's based on a "preference in sound" rather than "accuracy in sound".

So

BQ

[Mallette]

"When you enter vinyl records into the equation - you are comparing apples and oranges as it's based on a "preference in sound" rather than "accuracy in sound".

As a recording engineer myself, I'd expect a bit of clarification here before I would agree.

If you are referring to "enter(ing) vinyl records into the equation" meaning comparing to (eguating, by definition) storage media of comparable bandwith, I agree...though equal bandwith should imply similar sound under ideal conditions. That would mean you could make a meaningful comparason between LP, reel to reel, or digital sources with a minimum of 24/96 and above. However, CD by spec simply cannot be compared to these media because it does not have anywhere near the information stored. Even 24/96 has three times the information. "Preference" is indefinable as there is no accounting for taste. However "accuracy" means as true to the original information as is possible...and that is science.

JM (and my ears) HO.

Dave

[Khorn]

I had a lot invested in TTs arms and cartridges back in the 70's. Loved the sound. In the early 80's with the advent of 'CD' and "Perfect Sound Forever" I jumped right into CD and got rid of all my vinyl. Bad mistake. I lived with players, transports and DACs and grew increasingly dissatisfied with CD until just recently. I purchased a Sony SCD-1 SACD/CD player and WOW! has that changed things. I find that the CD repoduction through this unit is amazing. Much better CD sound than I ever hoped for. But, It doesn't, even with the best CD's, come anywhere near the experience of listening to a well recorded SACD. IMHO SACD properly implemented (recorded and mastered) offers the best of both vinyl and conventional CD and in some instances surpasses them both. It's hard to explain but as soon as you put on a good SACD you are aware of a much more "relaxed" presentation. I told you it was hard to explain

The above are my own personal experiences so that's what I can relate to. If you do get the chance to plug an SCD-1 or similar player into your system do so, you might be in for a very interesting time.

[AndyKubicki]

But I don't have $5000!!!

[maxg]

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On 10/6/2002 2:51:48 PM Khorn wrote:

I had a lot invested in TTs arms and cartridges back in the 70's. Loved the sound. In the early 80's with the advent of 'CD' and

"Perfect Sound Forever"

I jumped right into CD and got rid of all my vinyl. Bad mistake. I lived with players, transports and DACs and grew increasingly dissatisfied with CD until just recently. I purchased a Sony SCD-1 SACD/CD player and

WOW!

has that changed things. I find that the CD repoduction through this unit is amazing. Much better CD sound than I ever hoped for. But, It doesn't, even with the best CD's, come anywhere near the experience of listening to a well recorded SACD. IMHO SACD properly implemented (recorded and mastered) offers the best of both vinyl and conventional CD and in some instances surpasses them both. It's hard to explain but as soon as you put on a good SACD you are aware of a much more

"relaxed"

presentation. I told you it was hard to explain

The above are

my own personal experiences

so that's what I can relate to. If you do get the chance to plug an SCD-1 or similar player into your system do so, you might be in for a

very

interesting time.

----------------

Whilst you may be right for the higher end of the SACD player chain it is not my experience with the cheaper end. It seems that at $500 to $1000 price levels the SACD players do not match even lower end TT's and dont even offer that much over similarly priced CD players.

If SACD's are only going to be appreciable at the rarified heights of the players you mention then they are unlikely to gain the critical mass they will need to succeed.

The other problem is that there are already newer and better technologies in the pipe-line (such as blue-laser) that in theory offer many times more storage and throughput than either SACD or DVDa.

This is the endless chain of upgrading the manufacturers want us to climb aboard. Frankly I am running out of patience with the whole thing.

[Mallette]

You're right, Max, about the "new" technologies. I use quotes because higher data rates aren't new, and more dense storage media isn't either...both are largely incremental technology.

However, I've been recording LP's to 24/96 with great success. I'm looking forward to the impending drop of DVDR prices (already less than 300.00). I am also conducting location recording experiments with it, though still do 15/44.1 for release as I don't hold with transcoding and 24/96 is not an accepted release medium yet.

SACD is no help to me because it still isn't as high res as 24/96 and above, I've not seen any record capable devices, and the catalog is really weak.

I believe 24/96 and above is the ticket for the audio future.

Dave

[Khorn]

AM Mallett wrote:

"SACD is no help to me because it still isn't as high res as 24/96 and above, I've not seen any record capable devices, and the catalog is really weak.

I believe 24/96 and above is the ticket for the audio future."

I must admit that the best sounding SACD that I have to date is derived from a 24 bit/96 KHZ master.

Joe Weed: 'VULTURES' TopMusic SACD-1028

This is 'Surf' music played by some fantastic bluegrass musicians. Anyone with an SACD system should try to get hold of this one, it's pure ear candy and has earned a regular and somewhat "exhaulted" spot in my rotation.

Don't overlook another thing, SACD is still relatively new and, even as we speak there are improvements in recording/mastering SACD technology.

Judging only by what I am hearing I can't help but get excited over how SACD reproduces music. I'm enjoying, and looking forward to new releases more than ever now.

[AndyKubicki]

Has anyone experimented with CD tweaks with good results? I have seen some that include applying Dynamat to the player's case, changing rectifier diodes and so on. If some of these things work, then I wonder if it's possible to spend under $1000 on SACD and get closer to the sound of an SCD-1?