which to buy?

[marksdad]

i know i am listed as having an svs ultra sub, i was going to buy 1 , but i am afraid it will be too much for my system, or my listening area, if you had my system, and needed a larger sub (currently- ksw12) what would you go after?

[Kain]

Actually, I don't think there is such a thing as "too much subwoofer."

I say go for the SVS CS-Ultra, if you do think it is too much just return it (or turn it down).

[Kain]

By the way, how big is your area?

[RWMIN]

I agree, Get the SVS Ultra and you will never look back.

Unless you are looking to save money then you could buy my PW2200 and I can get the Ultra.

[Colin]

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_8_4/subwoofers-12-2001.html

This is a great article by Brian Weatherhead! Excellent comparison of the different frequency response and sound of various subs. Each one sounds so different. The charts really paint the differences. Great pictures and descriptions, great use of reference materials. I especially like the shake values that he uses to score each active mid or deep-bass woofer.

Most of the subs taper off near 100 Hz, so each one is what I would call a mid or deep bass woofer - they leave the upper-bass area, from 100 to about 200 or 250 Hz alone. Only the Velodyne extends both deep (below 18 Hz.) and high (above 120 Hz.) The Velodyne HGS-18 classic is twice as loud from 56 Hz and up than most of the others, plus it has higher output above 120 than all of the others, yet it extends down to 13 Hz.

It is amazing how deep and loud the SVS CS-Ultra is below 50 Hz and how flat it is above that level. This unit should be the U-571 crowd pleaser. This makes the market leader well suited for both mid-bass and deep bass applications.

Surprisingly, the mighty Klipsch RSW15 is more of a mid-bass woofer with a peak at 104 Hz. But this is where the music is. After playing around with my subs and an EQ, I can say that extending the bass all the way down to 20Hz doesn't do as much as having something powerful in reserve to punch out the middle bass. Where I once preferred the SVS tubes because they dig down so deep, I now prefer the punchy mid-bass woofers, like the Klipsch RSW15, because they add excitement to both movies and music.

The flattest response among the selection is from the Klipsch KSW15. From about 30 to 104 Hz, therefore the reviewer has the most tepid remarks for KSW15. Yet, this should make the lowest cost sub in the review the closest to the flat response model, ideal for music reproductions on many moderate speaker systems. Big old horns would be better matched to the deep and loud output of the dual SVS tubes.

Writer Brian Weatherhead coined a new measurement for subs last year. His Shake Value ranks their output at 20 Hz. On his scale, loudness at 70-dB is one point (1) and every 10 dB above that adds another point. The rating means every additional point is twice as loud as the previous point. It's a simple, but easy, gauge for comparing how much rumble and punch a sub will give you. On his shake scale, for example, the Klipsch RSW-15 rates an above average 2.4, with the Velodyne HGS-18 scoring an extraordinary 3.1. While the large SVS CS-Ultra tubes score an impressive 3.9, the Krell Master Reference subs trounces all of them - and by several lengths. With tremendous 120-dB output in the 20-Hz basement, the monster rumble chest leaps over the rest of the pack with an incredible 5.0 performance. But this is not so remarkable as its outrageous $28,000 price tag.

Using the shake value as the sole performance figure, then dividing the price by it, gives you an idea of how much "shake" you can buy for how much money. The price/performance ratio favors the Klipsch K model by a long shot. For a list price of $749, and a street value much less than that, you get an awful lot of sub shaking for the money.

The next best deal is the SVS CS-Ultra, which is about three times the price however, but for that extra premium, you get almost triple the shake value of the Klipsch KSW15 - you get some deep bad *** bass. Bass this low flows throughout the whole house and definitely lowers the Wife Acceptance Factor (WAF) for your hobby. The Atlantic, RSW15 and then the Velodyne follow in price/performance. The versatile and powerful Velodyne is four times the price of the KSW15 with about 3 times the shake value. By far, the worse price/performance ratio is the Canton AS 300. For almost three times the price of the KSW15, you get about 1/2 the shake value!

Not only is there a big difference in the purchase price of the subs, but there is also a significant in the shape of their frequency responses. Although the RSW, CS-Ultra and HGS18 are all Brian's choices, each one sounds quite different. (I think he bought the RSW15 and the SVS Ultras.)

It is no wonder the RSW sounds best for music with its punchy mid-bass peak. Although it reaches down at 30 Hz, it doesnt do it any where near as well as the CS tubes. (And who really cares what the CS tubes look like, when the lights are out, nobody sees them. If they rumble as deep as semi-truck, no will care what they look like..except the wife.)

The sub-woofer leader Velodyne is $1195 more expensive than the Klipsch. And if you do not think that is important, let me tell you, Klipsch knows how important it is. This is 60% more than the RSW.

Just as important, the CS-Ultra is not only priced in the middle of these two, but it is the ONLY sub to significantly increase output below 56 Hz. This is want we want for flat musical response. The CS is the only sub with both a relatively flat response above 50 Hz and an increase in output level below that. In other words, the CS is the only deep-bass woofer in the pack.

It is also the only sub in Brian's charts that can match the full range output of full-range, high efficiency horns. I am not sure how the differences in their amplifiers was equalized, but if you are listening to music at the 110 dB level, which he shows on his chart, only the CS will have the output at 29 Hz needed to keep up with the mains. It is the sub that has the most output below 40 Hz. At normal listening levels, only the CS will have the 10-dB increase necessary to give you the idea that there is some low bass material present. This is where big old horns need their low-end assist.

The best value in the pack, especially if you do not have any sub or have budget constraints is the Klipsch KSW15 model. The best all-round performer for music and movies is the Klipsch Reference model. The best deep-bass sub-woofer in this pack to match with Cornwalls and other big old horns for low putput? The SVS CS-Ultra.

[Kain]

By the way, keep in mind that in that review, they used dual SVS CS-Ultras. In order to find out how a single SVS CS-Ultra would perform, subtract 6dB from the SVS CS-Ultra graphs.

[minn_male42]

thanks for the great link colin....excellent article!!!

[m00n]

Well, I would not be doing my job as a klipschkanite if I didn't make a pitch for the RSW-15. As I have said before, I have never heard any SVS subs, so I can't make any compairisons. But I will tell you that the 15 is an incredible sub. My theater is in a completely different building than my house. My sub is on the far wall of the building away from the house, our bedroom in the house is on the far wall from the sub. ( I realize this is hard to picture in your mind ) Anyway, that sub is so powerful she told me today to turn it down because she could clearly hear it in the house.

[prodj101]

you can never have too big of a sub. I have an RSW-15 with SF-2's and don't think there is too much bass at all.

[Orange Peel]

Don't listen to the naysayers You gotta have an SVS, nothing like it Don't be like mOOn, he's just scared he will love the SVS's and have to order dual Ultras and sell the RSW's. hehe j/k Moon's a great guy in my books, he knows his stuff!

Truthfully dude, either way you go you won't be dissapointed, go with what YOU feel is the best choice, don't do something that involves this much money because we say to. You can buy the RSW-15, listen to it, if you like it keep it, if you feel it's just not quite there, return it, get a refund, order the SVS and compare. If you don't like the SVS as much, return it, get a refund and go get the RSW again. Pretty simple. But either one will rock your world!

[m00n]

I just wish I could hear one of the SVS subs. I have a feeling they do boom. Mostly I want to hear one against an RSW-15. I want to know if they are punchy like the RSWs....

Don't be like mOOn, he's just scared he will love the SVS's and have to order dual Ultras and sell the RSW's. hehe j/k

Blasphomy ... Remember my motto. "AKATT" (All Klipsch All The Time)

Moon's a great guy in my books, he knows his stuff!

Gosh... Gee.... I would be willing to be that boa would argue that point. he wants to beat me with my speakers, I just know it.

[NOZ]

mOOn,

They don't really boom, they are smooth and subtle, and then

crack! They hit you, like your chest is caving in.

Just stirring you up, buddy...

[m00n]

Damn Noz.... I really do want to hear some. m00n quickly whipsers to himself "NO must refrain... AKATT, AKATT, AKATT, AKATT, AKATT"

[prodj101]

I think I'll stick with my RSW-15

[TheEAR]

The more sub you have the better.DOnt skimp on subs,do like me and overpower the whole street.

I started with one,then moved on up and now have 11 subwoofers.I dont count bass modules that come with PC speakers.

The Ultra is a great subwoofer,no question.But other great subs are on the market too.

Sunfire Signature

Velodyne HGS12

Velodyne SPL1200

Klipsch RSW10 and 12

M&K VX100 and 700

REL Q200E

and in the lerger ones

Revel B15

Aerial SW12

Velodyne HGS15 and 18

B&W ASW4000

M&K 350THX

Klipsch RSW15

JBL Ti-K sub

Talon ROC

REL Stentor and Studio

And if you have the guts and monetary fortitude the Krell MRS fits the bill.As powerful compact sub as you can buy(at any price)and build as solid as a M1 battle tank!

Go get a serious sub,you will never see and hear HT the same way again.

Me I collect them all,well in a few years I will probably have them all(maybe not the Krell $$$$$$ )

[prodj101]

lol, that krell is wicked. looks like it could be used as a blast proof safe. I saw some pictures of it in stereophile and it looks better there than on their website.

[kjohnsonhp]

I've heard the dual SVS ultras w/Cornwalls. I also heard the KSW15 with a complete RF7 system. The SVS Ultras made a noticably more dramatic impact on my body and I felt like the guy in the Maxel ad. I didn't do a very fair and scientific test, but I was more impressed with the Ultras. Both, however were impressive. I thought my current inexpensive CSW 500W powered sub had a low WAF and was impressive. I never realized the improvement the KSW15 or Ultras could provide.

KSW15 demo started resonating with the walls which was unpleasant so the volume needed to be lowered. I wonder how big subs will sound in my room.

Do you use subs with Cornwalls and music? I've been turning mine little sub off but I assume with appropriate integration I could use the bigger/deeper subs.