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Zen Traveler

Thinkers and Malcontents

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18 minutes ago, Jeff Matthews said:

OK.  I don't remember that, but maybe so.  I seem to recollect someone else carrying on like a sailor.  Gilbert and TKH....  Shaaaaaaame on you!

It definitely happened that way and those dudes can take credit for after 15 years finally getting rid of me....On that note, when I was first invited to the BS Forum noticed it was Republicans vs Democrats. I was an independent at the time and had several policy agendas that didn't fit in either party.

 

I though it was interesting that during the Obama years the place seemed to go dormant compared to conversation during the Bush Administration. The folks who stayed started rallying against Government in general. I figured the people who put in writing their predictions that ended up not coming to fruition left for obvious reasons...In the end it seemed Jeff supported the Republicans, while Keith and I supported the Democrat and everyone else being upset with the status quo because of the "RIP."  

 

Fwiw, that whole written journey that we went through was extremely enlightening and not having access to most of that material is what really is the tragedy of losing that platform for all of us to communicate with one another--There was some real and heart-felt emotion there over important topics than No one seems to be talking to each other about....Everything now seems to be an echo chamber. 

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19 hours ago, dtel's wife said:

Once again, herein lies the problem. There really shouldn’t be “sides”. As a supposedly civilized society we should be able to reach for common goals. This is impossible for some to understand and work towards. It’s “my side” or “the other side”. I can’t decide if it’s sad or downright disgusting. 

It's both and you are 100% correct.  It perfectly describes the state of things today, and what the real harm is in having a "rip."  Divide, conquer and above all else remain in power.  The sad thing is it can lead to all power (sovereign) being lost, and the disgusting thing is the inability for most to see it happening and the gusto with which it is still pursued.

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17 minutes ago, oldtimer said:

It perfectly describes the state of things today, and what the real harm is in having a "rip."  Divide, conquer and above all else remain in power. 

I understand you and others feel that way. I don't wish to have this thread closed by getting anyone partisanly political  but will say our country is going in quite a few different directions than it was under the previous administration and lumping everyone together misses the point, imo. 

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3 hours ago, Mallette said:

Sigh...

Dave

Wait? You made both twistedcrankenhammer and me moderators on your Facebook group. 😲 What were we supposed to do on disagreements? The way it looked to me was that he had priority.  Is that true? Ironically, Jeff and I remember the same orneriness but he thought it was conducted by strangers and I the other moderator.  To  make it even more comical, TCH makes it seem quite a few people were involved and I remember it being pretty much he, Gilbert and I and you seemed to confirm it with the acceptation Gilbert's cousin. 

 

Anyway, insofar as politics are concerned, I'm not discussing them here, but the BS Forum's closing had nothing to do with that and the nature of communication is that what folks find important will make it's way on this board and warnings I assume given. :)

Edited by Zen Traveler
punctuation

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3 hours ago, Zen Traveler said:

Anyway, insofar as politics are concerned, I'm not discussing them here, but the BS Forum's closing had nothing to do with that and the nature of communication is that what folks find important will make it's way on this board and warnings I assume given. :)

 

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17 hours ago, Zen Traveler said:

😲 What were we supposed to do on disagreements?

What I said was I was not going to moderate. Any action requires group action. Personally, I never saw anything that required any but would have gone with the group if they did. That's the nature of an autonomous collective. Klipsch is NOT an autonomous collective. All are safe here. I like that...but I like to be well clear of the safe zone on occasion and understand the risks.

 

Dave

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29 minutes ago, Mallette said:

but I like to be well clear of the safe zone on occasion and understand the risks.

Most are unable to handle it.  Many are the same who deride "safe zones."

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4 hours ago, Mallette said:

 Personally, I never saw anything that required any but would have gone with the group if they did. 

If this is the case then you weren't paying attention or never went back to what I described as inappropriate comments. In fact, I am not sure you really know what an ad hominem is given your comments about them here and in the past. 

 

4 hours ago, oldtimer said:
4 hours ago, Mallette said:

but I like to be well clear of the safe zone on occasion and understand the risks.

Most are unable to handle it.  Many are the same who deride "safe zones."

I'm not sure what this talk about "safe zones" is about  but I think I found out where the crux of the problem lies and stated it above and help with the definition below:

 

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.[2]

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On ‎5‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 7:59 PM, twistedcrankcammer said:
On ‎5‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 6:20 PM, Zen Traveler said:

The problem isn't like twistedcrankenhammer states but his perspective. Otoh, only  one of has been cautioned by moderators  that we needed to be more civil and it wasn't me. I also didn't complain but was exposing why more people didn't join the discussion and as I mentioned, had no problem being in the minority in the other place at the end and the beginning which was during Republican Administrations...During the Obama years it was a pretty quiet place and no one seemed to really have any complaints. :) 

 

 

Exactly Zen, a one sided stacked deck you seem to be incapable of comprehending or remembering!

What I described above was, if anything, the deck was stacked against me and those who participated will (more thank likely) tell you I was in the minority. I'm not complaining and really not sure what you mean by "stacked deck" unless you are talking about the moderators-If you go down their list you will find most (if not all but one) are conservative. The reason you got warning points was because of your delivery and the words you used. It wasn't because of political ideology. 

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47 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said:

I'm not sure what this talk about "safe zones" is about 

Apparently schools including colleges have "safe zones" where the poor exposed and therefore imposed upon can go and drink cocoa without suffering the slings and arrows of differing opinions.   These are the same schools that are warping the fragile little minds of our youth with evil professors who expose and therefore impose (lol) differing ways of looking at the world.  Apparently, thanks to the over-protective parents of today, these fragile little minds are unable to use them for themselves.  As stated before, many of the same who express horror at this state of things are the same ones who cry out when they are exposed to differing opinions and run to authority figures such as moderators, and otherwise avoid sites where there is no protection re: complete freedom.  Some even actively cheer the demise of such free places, as having "no place here."

 

So this leads to the autonomous collective Mallette mentions.  This form lasts even shorter than a republic.  Human nature seems to gravitate towards authoritarianism, even when given the gift of relative freedom.  I'm sure many here can figure out numerous examples, unless their fragile little minds were warped by evil teachers.

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46 minutes ago, oldtimer said:

Apparently schools including colleges have "safe zones" where the poor exposed and therefore imposed upon can go and drink cocoa without suffering the slings and arrows of differing opinions.   These are the same schools that are warping the fragile little minds of our youth with evil professors who expose and therefore impose (lol) differing ways of looking at the world. 

I understood the concept but linking it to our discussions seems misplace to me.

 

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As stated before, many of the same who express horror at this state of things are the same ones who cry out when they are exposed to differing opinions and run to authority figures such as moderators, and otherwise avoid sites where there is no protection re: complete freedom. 

I'm not sure how to take this but will try to frame it in another light: True. Some people are easily offended by someone else's opinion but my point is that many more don't even join the discussion for being uncomfortable when the ad hominems  start--That seems to be acknowledged by the moderators who try to keep the place going and why I am disputing Dave's claim that it was happening on his FB Group--The proof should still be there if were to go and look...It wasn't border line. 

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Some even actively cheer the demise of such free places, as having "no place here."

I contend those are the ones who don't like to have their views challenged or witnessed what I keep  talking about civility--I contend (once again) that it's not about discussing politics per se, but the consequence of incivility and ad hominems being part of the discussion.

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So this leads to the autonomous collective Mallette mentions.  This form lasts even shorter than a republic.  Human nature seems to gravitate towards authoritarianism, even when given the gift of relative freedom. 

That is furthest from the truth about me.  Surely you know me well enough that I can hold my own against folks shouting stupid crap in my presence and  can counter with some colorful words of my own. That said, when I have to put my thoughts in writing I want to try and convince a person with the substance and anything else is a waste of my time...For the record, I DID put up with all of that nastiness for 15 years and only brought the most egregious to Dave. On both occasions when he said he wasn't going to do anything about it I chose my next path and neither were for the reasons above nor did I make a scene--I wanted MORE people to engage in discussion and debate. 

 

 

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It wasn't a post about you.  I was merely explaining the pretzel logic of the safe space from all sides of the idiocy.  Linking it to discussions here and elsewhere is not misplaced at all, it is a valid description of reality.

 

ps:  After posting the definition of ad hominem, why are you still misspelling it?

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12 minutes ago, oldtimer said:

It wasn't a post about you.  I was merely explaining the pretzel logic of the safe space from all sides of the idiocy.  Linking it to discussions here and elsewhere is not misplaced at all, it is a valid description of reality.

Well, you seem to be blaming the people who complain about incivility and I blame the ones who don't play by the rules. 

Quote

 

ps:  After posting the definition of ad hominem, why are you still misspelling it?

Okay. You got me on that one--I suck at spelling and rely on spell checker....Now I will embarrassingly go and edit. 

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9 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said:

Well, you seem to be blaming the people who complain about incivility in discussion and I blame the ones who don't play by the rules. 

I am not talking about incivility.  I might be talking about the incorrect perceptions of some regarding incivility.  "Play by the rules" is irrelevant if as stated beforehand there really aren't any rules.  In an autonomous collective for example the rules are fluid and set by the entirety of the collective.  The farther away from this structure, the closer one gets to authoritarian rule.  The entire evolution and history support my conclusion that people gravitate toward more rule and not less, even after fighting for less.

 

I was never talking about you.  That seems to be a problem these days where some people, even those at the highest office think it is all about them.  This is part of what I am trying to convey about perceptions in lieu of actual discussion.  So many are programmed to take things as being about them instead of simply a discussion about concepts, ideas and observations.

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8 minutes ago, oldtimer said:

"Play by the rules" is irrelevant if as stated beforehand there really aren't any rules. 

Sure. We aren't talking about a place with no rules but the last reiteration of the  BS Forum and Dave's FB group which had rules. Otoh, I didn't join your group because there evidently were no rules--In that environment, having been in thousands of these discussions, I know where they always end and it's not good....Even with rules it can get tricky and as I think @CECAA850 was alluding to is that if you have no rules you have no forum. 

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I don't have a group.  But if I did you would be surprised at how well we would get along despite extreme differences of opinion.  Also the structure would keep those away who could not handle the concept of freedom.

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